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Old 01-12-2009, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Central US
852 posts, read 1,199,429 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stockproipi View Post
Why do we make such a big deal out of a piece of fictional work?
You entered a Christian forum to say this? maybe you will find the truth that we have found while visiting here.
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Old 01-12-2009, 04:32 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,096,356 times
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The true identity of the four horsemen must be found in the correct historical setting. John was shown those things which were in his day to shortly take place because the time of the events of the Revelation was then near.

These time indicators are found in both the first AND the last chapters! Unlike Daniel (who was told to seal up the prophecy because the time was far off), John was told to NOT seal up the prophecy because the time was near (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10). This is critical to a proper understanding.

Preterist
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Old 01-12-2009, 07:19 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,474,139 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
The true identity of the four horsemen must be found in the correct historical setting. John was shown those things which were in his day to shortly take place because the time of the events of the Revelation was then near.

These time indicators are found in both the first AND the last chapters! Unlike Daniel (who was told to seal up the prophecy because the time was far off), John was told to NOT seal up the prophecy because the time was near (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10). This is critical to a proper understanding.

Preterist

The revealing of Jesus to John as written, is to the seven churches, which are in Asia. Notice to WHOM and WHERE the letters are written to. Asia, not Jerusalem. So, by this simple account, we can see that although most might see that this only pertains to the destruction happening in Jerusalem in 70AD, it isn't. It is written to people, and where they stand in their walks INTO the Christ Body. To those who "overcome".....

Really Preterist. For everyone who hears, and sees, the time is near. Everyone knows life is but a vapor, and then the life is gone. Eternal life is what Jesus gives, and this would then pertain to ALL who follow Him.

I notice that you correct, (in your understanding), quite regularly with anyone trying to be led of the Spirit, to understand what the revealing is, and was, and is about to come. I am not dead in the flesh yet, so learning as much as I can about how Jesus taught us to live, both in the flesh, and the Spirit, is my personal goal.

But thank you, for your valuable insight, but I do not think the Spiritual aspect of the revealing to John was a one time thing. I think it happens to ALL of His, who are coming into the Kingdom. Yes, the physical destruction was prophecied even while Jesus was alive. It was made quite clear, from the Teachers own lips. My question to you would be this:

Why would Jesus, after stating the fact of the destruction of Jerusalem, need to reveal anything to John, in such a cryptic way? Why not just say,,,,RUN!!!!
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:42 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,096,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
The revealing of Jesus to John as written, is to the seven churches, which are in Asia. Notice to WHOM and WHERE the letters are written to. Asia, not Jerusalem. So, by this simple account, we can see that although most might see that this only pertains to the destruction happening in Jerusalem in 70AD, it isn't. It is written to people, and where they stand in their walks INTO the Christ Body. To those who "overcome".....

Really Preterist. For everyone who hears, and sees, the time is near. Everyone knows life is but a vapor, and then the life is gone. Eternal life is what Jesus gives, and this would then pertain to ALL who follow Him.

I notice that you correct, (in your understanding), quite regularly with anyone trying to be led of the Spirit, to understand what the revealing is, and was, and is about to come. I am not dead in the flesh yet, so learning as much as I can about how Jesus taught us to live, both in the flesh, and the Spirit, is my personal goal.

But thank you, for your valuable insight, but I do not think the Spiritual aspect of the revealing to John was a one time thing. I think it happens to ALL of His, who are coming into the Kingdom. Yes, the physical destruction was prophecied even while Jesus was alive. It was made quite clear, from the Teachers own lips. My question to you would be this:

Why would Jesus, after stating the fact of the destruction of Jerusalem, need to reveal anything to John, in such a cryptic way? Why not just say,,,,RUN!!!!
Greetings, HotinAZ: I do not recall ever saying that everything was about the destruction of Jerusalem. It is, however, about the great tribulation intended by God for those Jews of the first century and the persecutions they in great part (as well as the Romans under Nero) brought about the first-century church! The churches mentioned in the Revelation are those actual churches of the first-century (pre-A.D. 70). There is no reason to understand them otherwise.

Furthermore, like others before you, you did not address the major issue of my post. John was shown those things which were in his day to "shortly" take place because the time was then "near." These time indicators are found in both the first chapter and the last chapter. John was told to NOT seal up the prophecy because the time for fulfillment was in his day "near!"

The entire book of the Revelation deals with that first-century world. Those churches of that day were about to endure severe persecution. THEY were to endure to the end of that age--until Jesus returned. Great tribulation was about to come upon that generation of Jews which Jesus condemned in Matthew 23. John wrote in such a cryptic way because lives were on the line. Should he have come right out and declared the beast to be Nero and Babylon to be Jerusalem? Those saints of that day were already enduring great trials and persecutions.

I believe Jesus mentioned much more to John than He did to the synoptic writers. It is interesting that there is no Olivet Discourse in John's Gospel. That is because the Revelation IS John's Olivet Discourse! Jesus needed to reveal many things to John beyond the destruction of Jerusalem--things that were generally given to Matthew, Mark and Luke. John was given the meat--the others were given the skeleton. The time for the things given in the Revelation is not near to all--it was near to those specific people of John's day.

It is one's preconceived ideas that prevent him from giving the time statements of the Revelation their true meaning. The words say what they say. Who are those who do not hear and see, HotinAZ?

Preterist
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Canada
589 posts, read 1,349,826 times
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In Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

God is saying the message of this Book (Revelation) is for the 7 Churches of Asia (Turkey). This is actually dual in meaning... it also is referring to a prophetic 7 eras of the true Church of God... from the time of the Apostles to the end time!

The 6th era called the Philadelphia ended in 1994 when the true Church of God thrashed the Sabbath and went into Apostasy. God was pleased with this Church but it is now gone... splintered into numerous small groups with only a small remnant still remaining faithful. The rest, now in Laodicea era, has become lukewarm and God said he will vomit them out of his mouth.

In the end time, the Shepherd (Jesus Christ) will return and he is going to gather the scattered sheep (the remnants of the Philadelphia era).

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Old 01-13-2009, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Arizona
777 posts, read 1,277,949 times
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Prophecy should not be interpreted in terms of the internal politics of a single denomination.

These horsemen are big events or announcements which will change the world "permanently".

To answer the OP: Globalists - those in power who may seem to have good intentions, but their desire is to rule over us all in every aspect of life.
You might know them by the phrase "new world order".

The Globalist Agenda

While it had existed previously, it was announced to the world on September 11th 1991 by George Bush Sr in his state of the union address.

I think the horsemen come before Daniel's 70th week. There is still no temple or even an announcement.

Last edited by Richio; 01-13-2009 at 12:36 PM.. Reason: Added brown.
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Old 01-13-2009, 01:13 PM
 
Location: USA
322 posts, read 657,512 times
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Of course any time we discuss Revelation, there seems to be many interpretations.

Recently, I saw something intresting on the history channel. Christian theologians and secular scientist were all agreeing that the world will come to an end. The scientist noted global warming and near Earth objects (asteroids) as sure and certain threats to the survival of humanity. The Christians expressed sure faith in the scriptures and spoke about the Revelation.

Even though Revelation is not always clearly understood, we Christians should take to heart that there are terrible things coming to the Earth and do everything we can to be prepared for all of it.

Noah was warned and built the ark. He did not panic. He did not ignore it. He obeyed GOD and did what was ordered.

Right now I'm trying to come up with a plan for a functional, earthquake-proof and radiation proof house. Also, considerations for resistance to extreme heat, are on the table. Geographic location must also be considered. All forms of enviromental degradation must be prepared for and simply a 101 list of things to do.

Smile, GOD loves ya! But please take wise action!
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Old 01-13-2009, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
4,309 posts, read 5,586,808 times
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The White horse in Rev.6:2 does not conclude the matter as Jesus Christ does in Rev.19. Pay attention here: The White horse of Rev.6:2, starts the events leading to the return of Christ. The White horse of Rev.6, is a picture of the false peace established by the Anti-Christ at the start of the tribulation period. Pay attention here: this peace is removed by the very next horse, the Red Horse. Paul speaks of this in 1 Thessalonians 5.

(1 Thess. 5-3) For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

Here is a few questions to ask yourselves: (1). Christ in Revelation 19 riding the white horse, at the end of the tribulation period, what is it He comes to do? (2). Does'nt He come with the armies of heaven? (3). Is'nt it to set up the Messianic kingdom? (4). Does not the Millenium follows the return of Christ? (5.) Then how is it He sends the Red Horse, and then the Black horse and the ..........etc., after He Himself comes? (6.) Is'nt He the "Peace" of the world?"

Just food for thought. Bless.
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Old 01-13-2009, 04:00 PM
 
Location: Arizona
777 posts, read 1,277,949 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
The White horse in Rev.6:2 does not conclude the matter as Jesus Christ does in Rev.19. Pay attention here: The White horse of Rev.6:2, starts the events leading to the return of Christ. The White horse of Rev.6, is a picture of the false peace established by the Anti-Christ at the start of the tribulation period. Pay attention here: this peace is removed by the very next horse, the Red Horse. Paul speaks of this in 1 Thessalonians 5.

(1 Thess. 5-3) For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

Here is a few questions to ask yourselves: (1). Christ in Revelation 19 riding the white horse, at the end of the tribulation period, what is it He comes to do? (2). Does'nt He come with the armies of heaven? (3). Is'nt it to set up the Messianic kingdom? (4). Does not the Millenium follows the return of Christ? (5.) Then how is it He sends the Red Horse, and then the Black horse and the ..........etc., after He Himself comes? (6.) Is'nt He the "Peace" of the world?"

Just food for thought. Bless.
I realize you're contrasting this horseman with Jesus in Rev 19, however...
I thought it said the white horseman had a crown and went out to conquer.
How is that about peace?
It seems like a grab for more power - over everyone.

The false peace you're thinking of comes later as does the devastation to follow.
That "peace" will be as a result of the confirming of a covenant with many nations.
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Old 01-13-2009, 04:32 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,096,356 times
Reputation: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilvan View Post
In Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

God is saying the message of this Book (Revelation) is for the 7 Churches of Asia (Turkey). This is actually dual in meaning... it also is referring to a prophetic 7 eras of the true Church of God... from the time of the Apostles to the end time!

The 6th era called the Philadelphia ended in 1994 when the true Church of God thrashed the Sabbath and went into Apostasy. God was pleased with this Church but it is now gone... splintered into numerous small groups with only a small remnant still remaining faithful. The rest, now in Laodicea era, has become lukewarm and God said he will vomit them out of his mouth.

In the end time, the Shepherd (Jesus Christ) will return and he is going to gather the scattered sheep (the remnants of the Philadelphia era).

Greetings, Wilvan: There are no "eras of the true Church of God" taught in the Scriptures. There is also no "end time." There is the time of the end--the end of an age but not an end time.

Such things as 7 eras of the Church of God is extrabiblical teaching. It was to that Laodicea Church only and specifically that Jesus spoke. While there may certainly be applications to other churches concerning the proper worship of the Lord, this is not the context of the churches of Revelation.

Preterist
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