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Old 01-13-2009, 06:08 AM
 
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As a recovering Universalist, I will throw my two cents in here, for what it is worth.

I don't know how many of you see the OT as a physical representation of the Spiritual New Covenant, but I can see it rather plainly. And the very first thing I see is the fall of man. Take a hard look at it, for a second.

Adam and Eve lived in Paradise. There was only 1 "thou shalt not" rule for them to follow, and if they broke it, the penalty was death.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

What was the serpents response?

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Now most people usually stop at this and they don't look any farther, but there is a tad more to this story. After they were punished for their sin, by having to lead hard lives, then they were banished FROM Paradise.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

We know that Jesus is the Way INTO the gates of Paradise, right?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

So, my question is this:

How does one enter into the fold of the sheep, and partake of the Tree of Life, some OTHER way? Isn't there ONLY 1 way? And if there is only 1 way, how does this compute?

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the CHILDREN of the kingdom(what kingdom?) shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


What is "outer darkness"?

It cannot be good, for sure. Also it seemed that when talking about it, Jesus was referring to the "unprofitable servants". Matt 22:13, 25:30

That is why I was led to believe that the supposed servants of Christ, who really are not His, will be facing the hardest time in the Kingdom of Heaven.

And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few.
For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.



I just don't know what will happen for people AFTER the flesh has passed, for only God knows the hearts of men. See, this really goes back to the judgmental arguments.

I believe also that the blood of Jesus is big and strong enough for the entire world. I also believe that there were many, many people throughout history, who expressed the Love of Jesus, and the Father.

The fundies will say they are damned. The UR's will say even Hitler is saved.

I personally say that if our own mirrors are clean, then there is much to be done. If the mirrors are filthy, then there is much more to be done.. but either way, it is OUR mirrors, not others. The reflection you see, is the same reflection EVERYONE else sees. Does it reflect Jesus, and ALL He stood for?

So, enough for now....just some thoughts to ponder.
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Old 01-13-2009, 10:53 AM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
7,559 posts, read 11,906,156 times
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Much to consider.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Adam and Eve lived in Paradise. There was only 1 "thou shalt not" rule for them to follow, and if they broke it, the penalty was death.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

What was the serpents response?

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
This point cannot be stressed enough, that God fashioned us to not know the difference between good and evil, and that the concept of knowing Him (as they did) makes good and evil a non issue. God is impervious to the difference between darkness and light - it's all within His governance.

We must avoid darkness until we are God conscious - when we are God conscious, darkness avoids us. When our eye is single, our whole body is full of light. (Luke 11:34)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post

We know that Jesus is the Way INTO the gates of Paradise, right?

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

So, my question is this:

How does one enter into the fold of the sheep, and partake of the Tree of Life, some OTHER way? Isn't there ONLY 1 way? And if there is only 1 way, how does this compute?

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the CHILDREN of the kingdom(what kingdom?) shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


What is "outer darkness"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I just don't know what will happen for people AFTER the flesh has passed, for only God knows the hearts of men. See, this really goes back to the judgmental arguments.
I believe also that the blood of Jesus is big and strong enough for the entire world. I also believe that there were many, many people throughout history, who expressed the Love of Jesus, and the Father.
If He is light, then being away from His face would imply darkness. If the pure are allowed entrance, what of the impure? There is no doubt that there will be a purifying for not just those who are unregenerated, but for us all. (Simply looking at the state of those Christians that pass away from this life assures us that there is more to be done - purity is defined as "without mixture".)


Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I just don't know what will happen for people AFTER the flesh has passed, for only God knows the hearts of men. See, this really goes back to the judgmental arguments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I believe also that the blood of Jesus is big and strong enough for the entire world. I also believe that there were many, many people throughout history, who expressed the Love of Jesus, and the Father.

The fundies will say they are damned. The UR's will say even Hitler is saved.
It becomes a theological conundrum, to say that He saves to the uttermost (Hebrew 7:25 - they that come, He will draw). If all have died - and all will be made alive (1 Cor 15:22) - it is left up to Him. (Prov 16:33)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I personally say that if our own mirrors are clean, then there is much to be done. If the mirrors are filthy, then there is much more to be done.. but either way, it is OUR mirrors, not others. The reflection you see, is the same reflection EVERYONE else sees. Does it reflect Jesus, and ALL He stood for?
Exactly, and that is what it boils down to. What are we showing the world? They are wanting an open hand, an accepting heart. We will hold fast the truth that He is holy, yet He has broken the chains of the oppressor, and come to set the captives free. He loves them right here, right now! Not after they've dressed up and conformed.
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Old 01-13-2009, 03:28 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 14,154,365 times
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Quote:
Shana I hope you get a good nights sleep. Maybe tomorrow you can answer this for me. You say people should repent and come to Jesus, but yet you also say everyone will be saved, even if they don't repent?
Thanks, ILNC I never said that I don't believe that there is no need for repentance. I believe that everyone will be brought to repentance and I believe that it is the work of God.


Just sharing.

"We are held captive by a lie. One part of that lie is that we are as Gods. The remedy for this is to shew us that we are ruined creatures. Till we believe or know this, we cannot return to God. Judgment, therefore, to shew us what we are, is as needful as the grace which meets the other part of the serpent's lie, and shews what God is. Therefore God kills to make alive. Therefore He turns man to destruction, that He may say, Return, ye children of men. Therefore He delivers even Christians to Satan, for the destruction of their flesh, that so they may learn what grace has not taught them." Andrew Jukes


A Jewish View of Hell



God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-13-2009 at 04:23 PM..
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Old 01-13-2009, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
4,309 posts, read 5,587,441 times
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Default Modern Day Pharisees!!!

Why do men make it so "complicated"? Why? All these rules and regulations, served up by each and every denominations. Universalism, Fundamentalism, Buddhism, Islamism, Christianism, all these "isms" and "scisms"! Yes, I said it!! Strip your selves of these labels people and just follow Jesus Christ! It's not that difficult. You allow people to make it difficult for you. These modern day Pharisees! You have His blueprint right, the bible, that is?
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Old 01-13-2009, 04:02 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 14,154,365 times
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Okay, Betsey Lane, I am a follower of Jesus Christ who believes that everyone will be restored to God one day through Jesus. Is this better? I try to clarify because people use terms and labels when discussing certain beliefs, perspectives, and hope to avoid misinformation. Love to you and God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 01-13-2009 at 04:32 PM..
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Old 01-13-2009, 04:32 PM
 
2,946 posts, read 4,880,945 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post

"We are held captive by a lie. One part of that lie is that we are as Gods. The remedy for this is to shew us that we are ruined creatures. Till we believe or know this, we cannot return to God. Judgment, therefore, to shew us what we are, is as needful as the grace which meets the other part of the serpent's lie, and shews what God is. Therefore God kills to make alive. Therefore He turns man to destruction, that He may say, Return, ye children of men. Therefore He delivers even Christians to Satan, for the destruction of their flesh, that so they may learn what grace has not taught them." Andrew Jukes


A Jewish View of Hell



God bless.
Thanks for sharing shana. Your post got me to thinking. That is the lie..that we are like God. So many live under that falsehood. Men think they are like God..that they are in control of his creation and have free will like the almighty. Men believe their free will overides God`s and ties his hands..believing they decide the fate of the Almighty`s creation. Oh,that we would humble ourselves and see our place...understanding that God is the only sovereign being and he and he alone decides who,what,where,and when.
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Old 01-13-2009, 05:01 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 14,154,365 times
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Quote:
Oh,that we would humble ourselves and see our place...understanding that God is the only sovereign being and he and he alone decides who,what,where,and when.
Amen, Dave. God bless.
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,725,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
Why do men make it so "complicated"? Why? All these rules and regulations, served up by each and every denominations. Universalism, Fundamentalism, Buddhism, Islamism, Christianism, all these "isms" and "scisms"! Yes, I said it!! Strip your selves of these labels people and just follow Jesus Christ! It's not that difficult. You allow people to make it difficult for you. These modern day Pharisees! You have His blueprint right, the bible, that is?
It is not the lack of adherence to the written blueprint which makes one a pharisee. Through lack of understanding it is that very blueprint (letter) which is used to spiritually kill. The pharisees prided themselves in following the blueprint down to every minute detail but through lack of understanding they swatted gnats/swallowed camels. From the heart come the issues of life - not from a book.
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Old 01-14-2009, 05:23 AM
 
Location: Frisco, TX
7,559 posts, read 11,906,156 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
It is not the lack of adherence to the written blueprint which makes one a pharisee. Through lack of understanding it is that very blueprint (letter) which is used to spiritually kill. The pharisees prided themselves in following the blueprint down to every minute detail but through lack of understanding they swatted gnats/swallowed camels. From the heart come the issues of life - not from a book.
Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? (John 5:39)
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Old 01-14-2009, 01:38 PM
 
40,150 posts, read 26,789,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? (John 5:39)
I believe Firstborn knows the scriptures, little elmer . . . what he is referring to is the second requirement . . . the power of God which is in his heart by way of the holy spirit from Jesus . . . not the rote reading of scriptures.
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