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Old 01-19-2009, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado U.S.A.
14,174 posts, read 23,333,059 times
Reputation: 10428

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Now you are changing the argument. You are rating sin, calling the forefathers bad Christians for owning slaves. I say, we all fall short. Just because they lack in one thing does not mean they were not Christian. If that's the case and that's how you judge Christianity then none of us will make it to heaven
You're darn straight I rate it! So you think a slaveowner, who thought they were following Christianity, made it to heaven? Yet you think I, as a gay man who thinks he follows Christianity will go to hell?

Sorry, but I don't believe any god would embrace someone who held other humans in captivity and torture for personal financial gain, and then cast me into hell because I'm incapable of loving someone of the opposite sex.
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Old 01-19-2009, 01:59 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,734,325 times
Reputation: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverian View Post
You're darn straight I rate it! So you think a slaveowner, who thought they were following Christianity, made it to heaven? Yet you think I, as a gay man who thinks he follows Christianity will go to hell?

Sorry, but I don't believe any god would embrace someone who held other humans in captivity and torture for personal financial gain, and then cast me into hell because I'm incapable of loving someone of the opposite sex.
That is the beauty of the gospel, God does not rate sin. We are all vile sinful creatures. Lest no man can boast.
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:05 PM
 
40,235 posts, read 26,840,335 times
Reputation: 6060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I am trying to understand where you are coming from. I know atheist that live better than many Christians but those Christians are going to heaven, the atheists are not.
This is where we disagree, Fundie . . . the Christians who do not strive every day to conform their thoughts, feelings and actions to those that they know from the holy spirit (conscience) and Jesus they should . . . and profess to believe in Jesus' name and all the appropriate rigamarole thought to be important to profess . . . are more likely to be those who hear "Depart from me . . ." Whereas, those atheists who respond to the inner Christ and holy spirit and actually think, feel and act as Jesus would have them do (regardless that they don't "believe" in him or God) . . . are most likely to say . . . "But when did I do these things . . ." and hear . . "when you did them to these the least . . ."
Quote:
The laws don't apply to salvation. Why would God allow these so so Christians in heaven but keep these great atheist out of heaven? I am trying to understand your concept.
God and Jesus WOULDN'T.
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 5,036,698 times
Reputation: 627
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverian View Post
You're darn straight I rate it! So you think a slaveowner, who thought they were following Christianity, made it to heaven? Yet you think I, as a gay man who thinks he follows Christianity will go to hell?

Sorry, but I don't believe any god would embrace someone who held other humans in captivity and torture for personal financial gain, and then cast me into hell because I'm incapable of loving someone of the opposite sex.
You are not incapable of loving someone of the opposite sex, you just choose not to. Love is a choice and lust has you blinded to that fact.

There is no polite way to explain to you why you are condemned by your own choices. I do not want you to be condemned, but I cannot compromise the truth for you to have a simblance of happiness in this world because then I would be hating you instead of loving you. You see I choose to love all of mankind and I also choose not to lust after what is inappropriate. I choose to love my wife and all love is a work in progress as well as a choice we all make one way or the other. Many get this confused, they confuse their lust with love and end up causing more harm than good. Most people in this world are seeking to fill their emptyness with the lust of the flesh rather than the truth of the Lord. Many are seeking to maintain that feeling they had when they became infatuated with another. The excitement of the horemones raging and the adrenlin rush that comes from the lustfull aspects of human sexuality and they mistake this for love. This is not just a homosexual thing but is the problem with all sexual immorality. Sexual intimacy is mistaken for love on many levels and that is the reason for so many unhappy marriages and sexually immoral relationships. Loving someone of the same sex is not the problem the problem is acting upon the lust and mistaking it for love. Many are caught in the lie of sexual immorality whether it be adultry, fornication, pornography, homosexuality or any deviant sexual situation. The flesh will lie to you and this is why we are told to resist the flesh. Too often we want to create God in our image rather than be the image of God He made us to be and that is where we come up with the ideas of, I dont think god would do this or that instead of looking at his word and accepting what He said was true.
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:12 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,734,325 times
Reputation: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This is where we disagree, Fundie . . . the Christians who do not strive every day to conform their thoughts, feelings and actions to those that they know from the holy spirit (conscience) and Jesus they should . . . and profess to believe in Jesus' name and all the appropriate rigamarole thought to be important to profess . . . are more likely to be those who hear "Depart from me . . ." Whereas, those atheists who respond to the inner Christ and holy spirit and actually think, feel and act as Jesus would have them do (regardless that they don't "believe" in him or God) . . . are most likely to say . . . "But when did I do these things . . ." and hear . . "when you did them to these the least . . ." God and Jesus WOULDN'T.
Thank you!!!!! You are a universalist! Why couldn't you say that from the get go? atheist go to hell because they reject the only thing that will allow them into heaven. God sees us all vile because He is so holy and righteous thus He cannot allow sin in His presence without a redeeming factor which is Jesus! The bible says, none of us are good not one, all our good deeds are filthy rags to Him.

You are a universalist
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:17 PM
 
783 posts, read 1,184,952 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Stop focusing on interpretations and focus on the results that will ultimately decide our fate . . . thinking, feeling and acting in the LOVE that Jesus showed us and identified as the two primary commandments.
MysticPhD,

You seem to be preaching a salvation of works grounded in Gnosticism because you appear to be rejecting the importance of the role of Faith in Christ Jesus in the Salvation of Godís people.

Would you please explain your position on Salvation; the role of Faith, and the necessity of Christ Jesusí virgin birth, sinless life, sacrifice to atone for the sins of all mankind and then His resurrection.

This would probably be best addressed on a new thread. I have to run right now but I'll check back later tonight. Thanks.
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:23 PM
 
40,235 posts, read 26,840,335 times
Reputation: 6060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Thank you!!!!! You are a universalist! Why couldn't you say that from the get go?
While I accept that you believe you have the wisdom and understanding to determine these things about others, Fundie . . . I at no time said everyone WILL make it. There will be failures . . . many from among so-called Christians. I am not completely clear on what if any other means will be available to the failures to be reconciled to God. But I am hopeful that they exist.

What you seem to interpret as my Universalism . . . is based on your inappropriate focus on "professed beliefs" and identification with specific dogma . . . and NOT the state of mind (soul or consciousness) necessary to join with God and Jesus. "Profess" whatever you think is important in Jesus' name, Fundie . . . but if your consciousness has not been tamed by the holy spirit to conform to Jesus' . . . it will probably hear "Depart from me . . ."
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado U.S.A.
14,174 posts, read 23,333,059 times
Reputation: 10428
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
You are not incapable of loving someone of the opposite sex, you just choose not to. Love is a choice and lust has you blinded to that fact.

There is no polite way to explain to you why you are condemned by your own choices. I do not want you to be condemned, but I cannot compromise the truth for you to have a simblance of happiness in this world because then I would be hating you instead of loving you. You see I choose to love all of mankind and I also choose not to lust after what is inappropriate. I choose to love my wife and all love is a work in progress as well as a choice we all make one way or the other. Many get this confused, they confuse their lust with love and end up causing more harm than good. Most people in this world are seeking to fill their emptyness with the lust of the flesh rather than the truth of the Lord. Many are seeking to maintain that feeling they had when they became infatuated with another. The excitement of the horemones raging and the adrenlin rush that comes from the lustfull aspects of human sexuality and they mistake this for love. This is not just a homosexual thing but is the problem with all sexual immorality. Sexual intimacy is mistaken for love on many levels and that is the reason for so many unhappy marriages and sexually immoral relationships. Loving someone of the same sex is not the problem the problem is acting upon the lust and mistaking it for love. Many are caught in the lie of sexual immorality whether it be adultry, fornication, pornography, homosexuality or any deviant sexual situation. The flesh will lie to you and this is why we are told to resist the flesh. Too often we want to create God in our image rather than be the image of God He made us to be and that is where we come up with the ideas of, I dont think god would do this or that instead of looking at his word and accepting what He said was true.

You REALLY think you know it all, don't you? I feel sorry for those living in such a dark cloud of ignorance. You don't know me, don't know what I feel, or even know how I live my life. I'm a partner, a father, and a wonderful person. To have you sit there behind your keyboard and tell me that I don't love someone I've spent 14 years with, someone I've supported, and had children with - that's about as insulting as it gets!!

Of course you then contradict yourself by saying that loving someone of the same sex isn't the problem, acting on it is the problem. You know what? I'm not living my life alone and in misery to please a few backwater bible literalists on the other side of the country. Believe what you want, hate as you please. Just keep it to yourself please. Unfortunately, the fundies in this country just don't seem to understand "live and let live".
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado U.S.A.
14,174 posts, read 23,333,059 times
Reputation: 10428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
That is the beauty of the gospel, God does not rate sin. We are all vile sinful creatures. Lest no man can boast.
If, in your mind, you're as "vile" as I am, then why are you so hung up on gay people?
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:34 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,734,325 times
Reputation: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
While I accept that you believe you have the wisdom and understanding to determine these things about others, Fundie . . . I at no time said everyone WILL make it. There will be failures . . . many from among so-called Christians. I am not completely clear on what if any other means will be available to the failures to be reconciled to God. But I am hopeful that they exist.

What you seem to interpret as my Universalism . . . is based on your inappropriate focus on "professed beliefs" and identification with specific dogma . . . and NOT the state of mind (soul or consciousness) necessary to join with God and Jesus. "Profess" whatever you think is important in Jesus' name, Fundie . . . but if your consciousness has not been tamed by the holy spirit to conform to Jesus' . . . it will probably hear "Depart from me . . ."
You are a form of universalism because you don't understand the gospel. You believe that people can know Jesus without actually knowing. which makes no sense. Sorry that is a form of universalism.
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