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Old 01-08-2010, 12:44 PM
 
178 posts, read 348,844 times
Reputation: 73

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
Antjraf as your whole post is like looking into a mirror and continually repeating a sentence to convince yourself of the validity of that sentence I wont repeat it.

As I am new here, but no less knowledgeable than many I will tell you of one of my term papers. It was one of the best I ever wrote. It drew on Christians who could not seperate State from Church or more so democracy from church. It was one of my highest graded papers. With due respect it sounds more like your hiding behind the use of state than actually leaving your house and looking. I do not doubt your Christianity, but in my work I have seen many Christians sit in thier house and suffer needlessly because they see what you see. There are churches out there and while I admit many are in apostasy they are some left. I promise you the time is near, but not yet. There are a few left. Maybe you might find one? My pastor looks to the eternal as I do and even sees some of the apostasy you see, but to simply discount all of them based on your fear of the state is a weakness.

Not to mention you cant witness if you sit at home. I go to Soldier's Homes with my church. I have done work at home for kids who lost their parents in Isreal. I have witnessed in psych wards to patients (some who speak like you). I have apologized to as many women I have committed adultery with as I can find even from 20 years ago in high school. All with Christ and my church. What truth need you find sir I have not displayed?
There are many unfounded and speculative presumptions made in your post. It sounds like you didn't clearly read and understand what I wrote in my post. I didn't claim to be a "Christian". I didn't put forth the notion that I never leave the house or never witness to others. I didn't convey a "fear" of the state (in fact, just the opposite since I asserted the fact. These are all misguided presumptions which is a diversionary tactic so as to not respond or debate with the facts presented.

While your efforts in helping and witnessing to others is comendable, your response does not rebut or refute the facts I laid out as it pertains to the legal character of a "church" which is a registered creation of government in the form of a 501c(3) organization and that such a "church" is subjugated to the will of its creator. You cannot serve two masters.

"What truth need you find sir I have not displayed?"

Your question leaves me confused. Do you claim to know all truth?

BTW, your "psyche ward" comment is not only funny, but telling.

thanks.
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Old 01-08-2010, 02:18 PM
 
696 posts, read 783,352 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by antjraf View Post
There are many unfounded and speculative presumptions made in your post. It sounds like you didn't clearly read and understand what I wrote in my post. I didn't claim to be a "Christian". I didn't put forth the notion that I never leave the house or never witness to others. I didn't convey a "fear" of the state (in fact, just the opposite since I asserted the fact. These are all misguided presumptions which is a diversionary tactic so as to not respond or debate with the facts presented.

While your efforts in helping and witnessing to others is comendable, your response does not rebut or refute the facts I laid out as it pertains to the legal character of a "church" which is a registered creation of government in the form of a 501c(3) organization and that such a "church" is subjugated to the will of its creator. You cannot serve two masters.

"What truth need you find sir I have not displayed?"

Your question leaves me confused. Do you claim to know all truth?

BTW, your "psyche ward" comment is not only funny, but telling.

thanks.
What facts, you discount something because of a piece of paper? Thats all your words ammount to. And I suggest if you find my psych ward comment to be funny that you spend some time in one. If you can laugh at the torments and suffering of others then truely you are lost. So enlighten me to your humor. I found no joy in what I saw, but I did see some with a yearning for God even in their broken lives.

With respect your words are weak in that I have seen them before from my own mouth. Sharper than any two edged sword. I used the same tactics. Heck I worked at a Ward in the DC area. If anyone can see the legalism around it it's eye. Of course its easier to make comments such this. Psych Ward comments are funny? Seriously?
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Old 01-08-2010, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado U.S.A.
14,174 posts, read 23,277,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigthirsty View Post
Lots of reasons. I don't feel bad for missing church.

I go to work at 7:15 and generally get home at 6:00. I see my child for 5 minutes in the morning and for about an hour at night.

Not going to work on Sunday gives me more time with her. I'm sure God understands that I'd like to be present in her life.
Exactly! We normally make it twice a month, but with toddlers, it's not easy. And our church is always full - when everyone shows up on Holy Days, it's overcrowded! And to think, we don't even have a coffee shop, donuts, band, or other things you'd find at the local mall food court!
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:29 PM
 
178 posts, read 348,844 times
Reputation: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
What facts, you discount something because of a piece of paper? Thats all your words ammount to. And I suggest if you find my psych ward comment to be funny that you spend some time in one. If you can laugh at the torments and suffering of others then truely you are lost. So enlighten me to your humor. I found no joy in what I saw, but I did see some with a yearning for God even in their broken lives.

With respect your words are weak in that I have seen them before from my own mouth. Sharper than any two edged sword. I used the same tactics. Heck I worked at a Ward in the DC area. If anyone can see the legalism around it it's eye. Of course its easier to make comments such this. Psych Ward comments are funny? Seriously?
Again, clear and utter obfuscation on your part. I guess you have a short memory regarding your comments; let me refresh your memory:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
I have witnessed in psych wards to patients (some who speak like you).
That was the comment I was referring to. The fact that you equate my writings with the speech of those you may have encountered in a psych ward. BTW, you have never heard me "speak" in your life.

I also noticed that you completely dodged the FACTS that I put forth regarding 501 c(3) organizations yet again. Your accusations of "weakness" are of no consequence since you provide NO EVIDENCE OR PROOF of your fraudulent claims. Please provide your evidentiary proof of the following:

1) "churches" having a 501c(3) designation ARE NOT creations of the state in which they operate and ARE NOT beholden to the rules and regualtions of its creator.

2) God finds it pleasing that His children seek permission from a legal and fictional entity to start, open, operate and join a "church" when He has already ordained it of His children to worship Him and fellowship with others without requiring the permission of any man or creation of man.

3) God's model of church is anything close to the modern paradigm which includes a self-appointed "leader" who seeks money before he speaks, prepares and recites a monologue speech and has no interaction with the people assembled to listen during the speech.

Please cite your evidence which supports the above claims as truth since you seem to think that my statements, which are in complete opposition to the above, have no validity.

I'll bet you won't. Who paid you while you "worked at a Ward in the DC area"? Was it the Federal government in the District of Columbia? Or were you paid by foreign members of the BAR association; attorneys at law? I can understand why you don't want to bite the hand that feeds you.
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Old 01-09-2010, 02:45 AM
 
696 posts, read 783,352 times
Reputation: 66
Antjraf can seed grow if hidden from the sun and water? Can a child stay forever in its mothers womb? Did Christ sit in his home and blame it on the 501 c(3) orginizations? Did Paul deny the Lord on the way to Damasscus? Did not Peter leave the house to testify at Pentacost?

1) I did not dodge your 501 statement. As this is merely an excuse with no merit why attack it? It speaks for itself.

2) Where did I request permission or my church. Did not the Lord say render to Ceaser that which is Ceasers? If we want a church to expand and have fellowship, how could you discount it. Or do you discern that the Hand of the Lord can move even a Church to form against a corrupt government. As it is clear you have a mind formed in the U.S. I suggest you again come out and go to places where churches form outside of the U.S. Again a lack of merit.

3) What self appointed leader? My pastor never asks for money. He never speaks in monologue. He testifies to the truth. He is a more humble man than I have ever seen. That you even remotely think you can discount him points to ignorance and pride. Again a lack of merit.

Your excuses are many and your assertions week. Do not words typed on a keyboard come from the heart any less than spoken words. Does the word not say that which comes from the heart can defile a man? I truely have heard you speak and there is nothing you have said that justifies your points. In short and to use your words that I have heard, they have no validity.

If you truely could prove your point then come out and join those of us who have. Search them out. If you can not find a single church who serves the people of this world in love than fine. Or can you not overcome the weakness in faith of others? If the Church is so corruptible as you speak do not Christians have an obligation to witness to the truth and point out said corruption? But I have heard your words, I once spoke them myself as I clearly and validly stated. I faced my own fears and thru Christ overcame them. May the Lord remove such fears. Im sure you think its judgemental, but dont worry Im not afraid as my words are true. Thank you for the discussion, you clearly do not understand.

On a side note this makes no sense since you so dogmatically assert it....

1) "churches" having a 501c(3) designation ARE NOT creations of the state in which they operate and ARE NOT beholden to the rules and regualtions of its creator.

Is this not in fact incorrect? By your assetion we are in fact a creation of the state. I guess its a typo. Oh well.
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Old 01-09-2010, 03:30 AM
 
125 posts, read 258,154 times
Reputation: 28
Mark 12:17 unless it is a 501c(3) standing. Rule of thumb (and pocket).
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Old 01-09-2010, 08:50 AM
 
178 posts, read 348,844 times
Reputation: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
Antjraf can seed grow if hidden from the sun and water? Can a child stay forever in its mothers womb? Did Christ sit in his home and blame it on the 501 c(3) orginizations? Did Paul deny the Lord on the way to Damasscus? Did not Peter leave the house to testify at Pentacost?

1) I did not dodge your 501 statement. As this is merely an excuse with no merit why attack it? It speaks for itself.

2) Where did I request permission or my church. Did not the Lord say render to Ceaser that which is Ceasers? If we want a church to expand and have fellowship, how could you discount it. Or do you discern that the Hand of the Lord can move even a Church to form against a corrupt government. As it is clear you have a mind formed in the U.S. I suggest you again come out and go to places where churches form outside of the U.S. Again a lack of merit.

3) What self appointed leader? My pastor never asks for money. He never speaks in monologue. He testifies to the truth. He is a more humble man than I have ever seen. That you even remotely think you can discount him points to ignorance and pride. Again a lack of merit.

Your excuses are many and your assertions week. Do not words typed on a keyboard come from the heart any less than spoken words. Does the word not say that which comes from the heart can defile a man? I truely have heard you speak and there is nothing you have said that justifies your points. In short and to use your words that I have heard, they have no validity.

If you truely could prove your point then come out and join those of us who have. Search them out. If you can not find a single church who serves the people of this world in love than fine. Or can you not overcome the weakness in faith of others? If the Church is so corruptible as you speak do not Christians have an obligation to witness to the truth and point out said corruption? But I have heard your words, I once spoke them myself as I clearly and validly stated. I faced my own fears and thru Christ overcame them. May the Lord remove such fears. Im sure you think its judgemental, but dont worry Im not afraid as my words are true. Thank you for the discussion, you clearly do not understand.

On a side note this makes no sense since you so dogmatically assert it....

1) "churches" having a 501c(3) designation ARE NOT creations of the state in which they operate and ARE NOT beholden to the rules and regualtions of its creator.

Is this not in fact incorrect? By your assetion we are in fact a creation of the state. I guess its a typo. Oh well.
Who is sitting home and not receiving water or sun? Again, you are still assuming this is the case if someone recognizes a 501c(3) "church" for what it is. Is being a member of a 501c(3) "church" the only way to minister and fellowship? You seem to think so. Perhaps there are those who are in God's favor and accomplish His Will outside the scope of governments and other creations of men. Is that possible in your view?

I have not provided excuses of any kind, just facts concerning the nature of "churches" which begged of the state to practice and operate by SUBMITTING an APPLICATION and REGISTERING (see definitions in my prior post) as a fictional entity which MUST FOLLOW the rules and regulations of its creator even if they are in conflict with God's Word and Law.

It is clearly you that doesn't understand. I wish you well and pray that God will keep you and yours blessed.

In truth, and for His Glory.
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Old 01-09-2010, 02:47 PM
 
696 posts, read 783,352 times
Reputation: 66
Antjraf if you drive a car you are registered. If you have a job your are registered. If you buy clothing you are registered. If you eat food you are registered in that you pay taxes on said food and use money of the state. Even if you produce your own food on your own property you pay property tax you are registered. You get mail you are registered. You are on the internet, you are registered. You may even vote, you are registered. You get a subscription, you are registered. Lastly if you file a 1040EZ you are registed. Or if you file 1040A when married. I submit to you to find all the forms that could be listed above. Your attempt to serperate yourself from state is fairly evident and in itself fruitless.

If your body is the Temple and a part of the Church of Christ can you work, eat, sleep, live without filing any form. And if you do, do you not defile your temple by your assertion? I have read your words and I have heard your voice. You are not saying anything I do not understand. But even then if the Bible is correct, all governments are ordained under God even if they dont accept it. While the essence of the state is man made and evil, if God were to remove government then said state would descend to anarchy. This is the reason God ordains the world orders. Yet, let it be known the Lord is not a respector of nations. All man made states will come to an end. Or does not the Bible assert God's primacy over all the nations?

No where did I discount not going to church as being grounds for not being Christian. In fact in truth it can be applied where two or three gather in my name. But it is more often used to justify what not to do than the sheer numerous applications of what it could do. May it never be.

Yet, in all this you discount my church. You discount my pastor. Use of the worlds All and Every speak of a heart who has found things to be true. While I concede many church's in apostasy the Spirit of The Lord still remains in a few, a minority, yet a remnant. It is to this that I beg you to reconsider.

I can respect your obvious looking toward the idea even of the mark of the beast in the end. I have rested on this for some time. It is truely why I could never find a church to be a part of it. Praise God that they still exist in even so small a form. But truely we need our brothers and sisters help. We can not do it alone. If you indeed pray, pray for one to help us spread the word. This would be a prayer to the Eternal, what you would pray for me is already accomplished. I have seen what you see and found it to not be of My Master and My Lord.

In Humilty may you know Truth.
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Old 01-10-2010, 10:17 AM
 
178 posts, read 348,844 times
Reputation: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
Antjraf if you drive a car you are registered. If you have a job your are registered. If you buy clothing you are registered. If you eat food you are registered in that you pay taxes on said food and use money of the state. Even if you produce your own food on your own property you pay property tax you are registered. You get mail you are registered. You are on the internet, you are registered. You may even vote, you are registered. You get a subscription, you are registered. Lastly if you file a 1040EZ you are registed. Or if you file 1040A when married. I submit to you to find all the forms that could be listed above. Your attempt to serperate yourself from state is fairly evident and in itself fruitless.

If your body is the Temple and a part of the Church of Christ can you work, eat, sleep, live without filing any form. And if you do, do you not defile your temple by your assertion? I have read your words and I have heard your voice. You are not saying anything I do not understand. But even then if the Bible is correct, all governments are ordained under God even if they dont accept it. While the essence of the state is man made and evil, if God were to remove government then said state would descend to anarchy. This is the reason God ordains the world orders. Yet, let it be known the Lord is not a respector of nations. All man made states will come to an end. Or does not the Bible assert God's primacy over all the nations?

No where did I discount not going to church as being grounds for not being Christian. In fact in truth it can be applied where two or three gather in my name. But it is more often used to justify what not to do than the sheer numerous applications of what it could do. May it never be.

Yet, in all this you discount my church. You discount my pastor. Use of the worlds All and Every speak of a heart who has found things to be true. While I concede many church's in apostasy the Spirit of The Lord still remains in a few, a minority, yet a remnant. It is to this that I beg you to reconsider.

I can respect your obvious looking toward the idea even of the mark of the beast in the end. I have rested on this for some time. It is truely why I could never find a church to be a part of it. Praise God that they still exist in even so small a form. But truely we need our brothers and sisters help. We can not do it alone. If you indeed pray, pray for one to help us spread the word. This would be a prayer to the Eternal, what you would pray for me is already accomplished. I have seen what you see and found it to not be of My Master and My Lord.

In Humilty may you know Truth.
Thank you for this response as it more along the type of discourse I prefer to have, amicable.

I urge you to pray on, study and learn the difference between one's true given name and character and the legally constructed name and artifice created by the state when one is born into the world.

Pray, study and learn that one can survive and live free outside the scope of the statutory and legal realm which was created for the voluntary enslavement to an earthly master.

Pray, study and learn that all governments are ordained of God AND MUST FOLLOW AND ADHERE TO HIS LAW to remain in that standing and divine character.

Your claim that separation from the state is "fruitless" is rejected and based on false presumptions. I now know that my true name and character has always been separate from this legal and fictional realm and the constructs from the minds of men. I am also applying this knowledge with success in my life.

Submission, application and registration are all voluntary acts. No one can force you to do these things no matter how convincing and "forceful" the attempts of those who purport to be "in power" lead you to believe. Ultimately, the entire system is based on VOLUNTARY COMPLIANCE, and if you look carefully, you will see that admission written into the "codes", statutes, and "laws" which have been presented to us all, through societal conditioning and government funded and controlled education, as having binding control over our lives and affairs. The "church", having a 501c(3) designation, is an example of this voluntary act of submission to a master other than Almighty God.

BTW, I don't know of your specific church or pastor. My posts were directed generally at those "churches" which have a 501c(3) designation.

Thank you again for your latest response and the kind nature of it.

In truth and for His Glory.
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Old 01-10-2010, 10:58 PM
 
696 posts, read 783,352 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by antjraf View Post
Thank you for this response as it more along the type of discourse I prefer to have, amicable.

I urge you to pray on, study and learn the difference between one's true given name and character and the legally constructed name and artifice created by the state when one is born into the world.

Pray, study and learn that one can survive and live free outside the scope of the statutory and legal realm which was created for the voluntary enslavement to an earthly master.

Pray, study and learn that all governments are ordained of God AND MUST FOLLOW AND ADHERE TO HIS LAW to remain in that standing and divine character.

Your claim that separation from the state is "fruitless" is rejected and based on false presumptions. I now know that my true name and character has always been separate from this legal and fictional realm and the constructs from the minds of men. I am also applying this knowledge with success in my life.

Submission, application and registration are all voluntary acts. No one can force you to do these things no matter how convincing and "forceful" the attempts of those who purport to be "in power" lead you to believe. Ultimately, the entire system is based on VOLUNTARY COMPLIANCE, and if you look carefully, you will see that admission written into the "codes", statutes, and "laws" which have been presented to us all, through societal conditioning and government funded and controlled education, as having binding control over our lives and affairs. The "church", having a 501c(3) designation, is an example of this voluntary act of submission to a master other than Almighty God.

BTW, I don't know of your specific church or pastor. My posts were directed generally at those "churches" which have a 501c(3) designation.

Thank you again for your latest response and the kind nature of it.

In truth and for His Glory.
If I did not appear amicable I truely apologize. I understand your mindset and truely I am a most humble man. But my zeal is to the Lord and I will defend with indignation if need be The Lord Jesus Christ.

Truly I say to you that my faith in Christ is very well founded and like you I have much the same beliefs, but I stand by the fact a few yet remain. I was lucky and I found one. I have searched for quite some time.

Let me reveal a truth of the consequence of my sin. What I have to do is for the love of Christ first and formost. Yet while I have peace in Christ I am without rest. I have to help everyone. I have spoken to my wife about missionary work. I am thinking of leaving the country. The yearning has been more than I can bare. Yet I have so much more to learn and I am still attending Theology School. I am mostly self taught and being jobless all I do is read, but I am rounding myself out.

I thought of you in Church today. I did as my pastor spoke of James and using Wisdom. Truely he speak that while two Christians can discuss belief's, they must do it in Christ. But if not in Christ then the discussion is fruitless. If by any means you think I have demeaned anything you say or discounted it be assured I have not. This is why I said I hear your voice. However, I do speak forcefully ( for some odd reasons people love me for it), but no I never do so without a fear of The Lord.

In Christ may you always find Truth.
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