Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If our heavenly Father indeed punishes with change and transformation as the outcome (and He does), it cannot go on and on and on: it must reach consummation.
There is exactly one passage of Scripture that speaks of "everlasting punishment" and that is St. Matthew 25:46. As mentioned earlier, the entire passage is in reference to servants of the master, virgins, and two clean animals sheep and goats.
The qualifications for being a sheep and a goat according to Jesus Christ are clearly enunciated. Can you tell us what they are?
Ah! The light is beginning to dawn. You are saying the "consumation" is at the end of the age when God's 'fire' consumes everyone. For the believer it will be rewards, for the unbeliever they will "be no more"....have I got it?
Are you speaking of the goats going to the left and the sheep to the right?
Ah! The light is beginning to dawn. You are saying the "consumation" is at the end of the age when God's 'fire' consumes everyone. For the believer it will be rewards, for the unbeliever they will "be no more"....have I got it?
No Matey you have not "got it"
Salvador Mundi: Dr. Samuel Cox
St. Matthew 25:31-46
Here you must observe that the passage is a parable; and that the parable is concerning nations, not individual men, as our Lord Himself tells us at the very onset (verse 32):
Quote:
And before Him shall be gathered all nations, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from his goats.
Goats Dear As Sheep
You must also remember, if you intend to found any conclusion on the parable, or to infer from words spoken of nations conclusions which touch the lot and fate of individual men, that the Judge is here set forth in the tender and familiar form of a Shepherd: that to the Eastern shepherd his goats are well-nigh, if not quite, as dear as his sheep; and that the left hand of a Judge or Ruler is the next best place to his right hand. Nay, more, you must mark--and this is a point which does not appear in our Authorized Version--that our Lord speaks in a certain gentle and kindly, even in a pitiful and caressing tone, of those who are ranged on the left hand of the Judge. The words he uses for them is not "goats." In verse 32, he speaks of the Shepherd as dividing his sheep, not from His goats, but from his "kids"; and in verse 33, he takes a still tenderer tone, and speaks of the Shepherd-Judge as setting His sheep on His right hand, but His "kidlings" - diminutive of kids, and, like all such diminutives, an expression of affection - on His left.
These considerations, these hints of mercy and compassion, may well make us careful as to the conclusions we deduce from this great passage. And even when the veil of parable falls aside, and when we seem to get clear and distrinct statements, at least on the fate of nations, if not on that of their individual units, we have still to remember that the Judge is depicted as rendering to everyone the due reward of his deeds, and of all his deeds. It is implied that if anyone has so much as given a cup of cold water to the least of Christ's brethren, he, though himself not a brother, shall in no wise lose His reward.
This Age & That Which Is To Come
And, finally, we have to examine the terms in which these future rewards are expressed. To those who stand on His left hand, the Judge is represented as saying, "depart from me, ye cursed [self-cursed], into the aeonial fire." Now I have no wish to abate the impressive sadness, the awful severity of these words. "The wrath of the Lamb" of God must be very terrible. And to hear Him whose gracious lips have always hitherto said,"Come unto me" say "depart from Me" will be an experience so sad, a surprise so terrible, as that I can well believe every man who hears that rebuff from His meek and gracious lips will wish that he had never been born; yes, and wish he had never been born even though he understands that he is banished from the presence of Christ only for an age, only that the age-long fire may consume his sins and burn out his unrighteousness. But to say that those who have rejected Christ in this present age are to be doomed to an everlasting banishment from His mercy is to contradict Christ himself, who expressly tells us that all manner of blasphemy against the Son of Man may be forgiven both in this age and in that which is to come. And, moreover, it is to import a new meaning into the meaning "aeonial", which, as we have seen, means "age-long," and to import it quite unnecessarily, since if we take our Lord as meaning that a rejection of Him in this age will be punished by banishment from Him in the age to come, we find a very good and sufficient sense in His words; whereas if we take Him as meaning that to reject Him in this brief life is to be excluded from His love forever, we not only strike a note utterly discordant with the tender and pitiful tone He speaks throughout the parable, but we also introduce that vast, unreasonable, unjust disproportion between our deeds here and their results hereafter from which reason and conscience alike revolt.
Kolasis=
And what are we to say to the closing words [verse 46] of the parable? "These shall go away into aeonial punishment, but the righteous into life eternal." Well, we may say this, take the phrase "aeonial life" to mean here, as elsewhere, life in Christ, the spiritual life distinctive of the Christ6ian aeons, and "aeonial punishment" to mean here, as elsewhere, the discipline, the punishment distinctive of the Christian aeons, the punishment which those inflict on themselves who adjudge themselves unworthy of that life, and the words make a very good and reasonable sense, a sense so reasonable that we need to search for no other. And mark, in this case at least, we cannot put a darker sense into the words of Christ except by trifling with them, and implying that we know what He meant better than He did Himself. For the word rendered punishment" [kolasis] is a very peculiar one. In its primary use, when it is applied to natural processes, it means "pruning," i.e., pruning bushes and trees in order that they may bring forth more fruit. When it is used figuratively, when it is applied to moral processes, it means corrective discipline, discipline by which character is pruned and made more fruitful in good works. The Greek has two words for "punishment", kolasis, the word used by our Lord and timoria, a word also used in the New Testament [Hebrews 10:29]: and the distinctive meanings of these two words are defined by Aristotle himself. [RHET.I.,10,17]
Corrective Punishment
The one word, that used by Christ, denotes, He says, that kind of punishment which is intended for improvement of the offender; while the other denotes that kind of punishment which is intended for the vindication of law and justice. And even the advocates of endless torment admit that the word selected by Christ means, according to the Greek meaning, remedial discipline, punishment designed to reform and improve men, to prune away their defects and sins. Archbishop Trench, [Synonyms of the New Testament, pp. 23, 24], for example, after adverting to the well known distinction between the two words, confesses that while the latter is used to indicate "the vindictive character of punishment, the former indicates punishment as it has reference to the correction and bettering of the offender." And I do not know where we shall find a sadder instance of the way in which good men suffer their theories and traditions to warp their judgment than may be found in the fact that, after thus defining the original and proper sense of the word used by Christ, this good and learned man proceeds to say that it would, however, be "a very serious error" to take the word in its proper sense here. We, on the contrary, maintain that it would be something worse than an error to take it in any but its usual and proper sense and, therefore, we conclude that our Lord meant precisely what He said; viz., that the wicked should go away from his bar to be pruned, go away into an age-long discipline by which they should be castigated for their sins, yea, and saved from their sins by the corrective discipline of His loving wrath. For that would not be a corrective discipline which left man unimproved forever; that would be a strange sort of "pruning", which was not at least designed to produce fruit.
Here you must observe that the passage is a parable; and that the parable is concerning nations, not individual men, as our Lord Himself tells us at the very onset (verse 32):
Goats Dear As Sheep
You must also remember, if you intend to found any conclusion on the parable, or to infer from words spoken of nations conclusions which touch the lot and fate of individual men, that the Judge is here set forth in the tender and familiar form of a Shepherd: that to the Eastern shepherd his goats are well-nigh, if not quite, as dear as his sheep; and that the left hand of a Judge or Ruler is the next best place to his right hand. Nay, more, you must mark--and this is a point which does not appear in our Authorized Version--that our Lord speaks in a certain gentle and kindly, even in a pitiful and caressing tone, of those who are ranged on the left hand of the Judge. The words he uses for them is not "goats." In verse 32, he speaks of the Shepherd as dividing his sheep, not from His goats, but from his "kids"; and in verse 33, he takes a still tenderer tone, and speaks of the Shepherd-Judge as setting His sheep on His right hand, but His "kidlings" - diminutive of kids, and, like all such diminutives, an expression of affection - on His left.
These considerations, these hints of mercy and compassion, may well make us careful as to the conclusions we deduce from this great passage. And even when the veil of parable falls aside, and when we seem to get clear and distrinct statements, at least on the fate of nations, if not on that of their individual units, we have still to remember that the Judge is depicted as rendering to everyone the due reward of his deeds, and of all his deeds. It is implied that if anyone has so much as given a cup of cold water to the least of Christ's brethren, he, though himself not a brother, shall in no wise lose His reward.
This Age & That Which Is To Come
And, finally, we have to examine the terms in which these future rewards are expressed. To those who stand on His left hand, the Judge is represented as saying, "depart from me, ye cursed [self-cursed], into the aeonial fire." Now I have no wish to abate the impressive sadness, the awful severity of these words. "The wrath of the Lamb" of God must be very terrible. And to hear Him whose gracious lips have always hitherto said,"Come unto me" say "depart from Me" will be an experience so sad, a surprise so terrible, as that I can well believe every man who hears that rebuff from His meek and gracious lips will wish that he had never been born; yes, and wish he had never been born even though he understands that he is banished from the presence of Christ only for an age, only that the age-long fire may consume his sins and burn out his unrighteousness. But to say that those who have rejected Christ in this present age are to be doomed to an everlasting banishment from His mercy is to contradict Christ himself, who expressly tells us that all manner of blasphemy against the Son of Man may be forgiven both in this age and in that which is to come. And, moreover, it is to import a new meaning into the meaning "aeonial", which, as we have seen, means "age-long," and to import it quite unnecessarily, since if we take our Lord as meaning that a rejection of Him in this age will be punished by banishment from Him in the age to come, we find a very good and sufficient sense in His words; whereas if we take Him as meaning that to reject Him in this brief life is to be excluded from His love forever, we not only strike a note utterly discordant with the tender and pitiful tone He speaks throughout the parable, but we also introduce that vast, unreasonable, unjust disproportion between our deeds here and their results hereafter from which reason and conscience alike revolt.
Kolasis=
And what are we to say to the closing words [verse 46] of the parable? "These shall go away into aeonial punishment, but the righteous into life eternal." Well, we may say this, take the phrase "aeonial life" to mean here, as elsewhere, life in Christ, the spiritual life distinctive of the Christ6ian aeons, and "aeonial punishment" to mean here, as elsewhere, the discipline, the punishment distinctive of the Christian aeons, the punishment which those inflict on themselves who adjudge themselves unworthy of that life, and the words make a very good and reasonable sense, a sense so reasonable that we need to search for no other. And mark, in this case at least, we cannot put a darker sense into the words of Christ except by trifling with them, and implying that we know what He meant better than He did Himself. For the word rendered punishment" [kolasis] is a very peculiar one. In its primary use, when it is applied to natural processes, it means "pruning," i.e., pruning bushes and trees in order that they may bring forth more fruit. When it is used figuratively, when it is applied to moral processes, it means corrective discipline, discipline by which character is pruned and made more fruitful in good works. The Greek has two words for "punishment", kolasis, the word used by our Lord and timoria, a word also used in the New Testament [Hebrews 10:29]: and the distinctive meanings of these two words are defined by Aristotle himself. [RHET.I.,10,17]
Corrective Punishment
The one word, that used by Christ, denotes, He says, that kind of punishment which is intended for improvement of the offender; while the other denotes that kind of punishment which is intended for the vindication of law and justice. And even the advocates of endless torment admit that the word selected by Christ means, according to the Greek meaning, remedial discipline, punishment designed to reform and improve men, to prune away their defects and sins. Archbishop Trench, [Synonyms of the New Testament, pp. 23, 24], for example, after adverting to the well known distinction between the two words, confesses that while the latter is used to indicate "the vindictive character of punishment, the former indicates punishment as it has reference to the correction and bettering of the offender." And I do not know where we shall find a sadder instance of the way in which good men suffer their theories and traditions to warp their judgment than may be found in the fact that, after thus defining the original and proper sense of the word used by Christ, this good and learned man proceeds to say that it would, however, be "a very serious error" to take the word in its proper sense here. We, on the contrary, maintain that it would be something worse than an error to take it in any but its usual and proper sense and, therefore, we conclude that our Lord meant precisely what He said; viz., that the wicked should go away from his bar to be pruned, go away into an age-long discipline by which they should be castigated for their sins, yea, and saved from their sins by the corrective discipline of His loving wrath. For that would not be a corrective discipline which left man unimproved forever; that would be a strange sort of "pruning", which was not at least designed to produce fruit.
Ah. Well, I'm afraid I don't agree with the above. There is a much deeper meaning to these passages. It has to do with whether a person followed the antichrist or not. The ones on the left did and the ones on the right didn't. The division in the beginning of the Millennium age is a time for teaching and discipline. The division that this parable shall end with is the final division where the souls will either go into eternity, or into the lake of fire. Where they will perish i.e exsist no more.
Actually Matthew 7:13 isn't saying they go to 'eternal punishment'. It says they go to "destruction" which is #684 and means to perish i.e fully destroy, cease to exsist.
Fully destroyed...........and cease to exist.............means what to you? Destruction..............? Perish...............?
Jude 7 reads......as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in similar manner to these, have given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude 12-13 reads........(12). These are spots in your love feast, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruits, twice dead, pulled up by the roots,
(13). raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
2 Thess. 9 reads..........These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.
Rev. 14: 11 reads........"And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever: and they have no rest day and night, who worship the beat and his image, and receives the mark of his name.
Rev. 19: 3 reads........Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!"
Rev. 20: 10 reads.........The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And, they will be tormentedday and night forever and ever.
I know alot of you like to take the argument of CONTEXT. So read the entire scriptures for yourselves, place them in whatever "context" you want, yet God's Words remain the same, yes, forever and ever................for eternity, for everlasting, undestructable, ages to ages, infinity.
If you're looking for a "feel good" gospel: "Oh God is such a loving God, He won't send anyone to hell forever"; you are deluding yourselves, people. It's right there in the scriptures. He said it, I believe it! End of story. Stop looking for excuses to keep on sinning. It is, what it is..............and hell is .............forever!
Sorry, no "feel good" story here, or I'm only as good as a liar and I refuse to do it to you.
Love Betsey.
Last edited by Betsey Lane; 01-29-2009 at 10:05 AM..
Reason: punctuations, comma's, etc.
Ah! The light is beginning to dawn. You are saying the "consumation" is at the end of the age when God's 'fire' consumes everyone.
As at Calvary (when all was paid), the fire will consume all of the carnal nature. This is what all scripture refers to.
We know this about God: He is not willing that any should perish - so we worship a God that bows to anything? Not my God.
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,' calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. (Isaiah 46:10-11)
Jude 7 reads......as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in similar manner to these, have given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Thank you for sharing this scripture, this blows holes into some peoples claims that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for being inhospitable. I had forgotten all about this scripture.
As at Calvary (when all was paid), the fire will consume all of the carnal nature. This is what all scripture refers to.
We know this about God: He is not willing that any should perish - so we worship a God that bows to anything? Not my God.
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure,' calling a bird of prey from the east, the man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. (Isaiah 46:10-11)
Yes, and even the "heathen" bow in worship before Him! Everything that the Father purposes He brings to pass & His counsel stands. Our God is not only the Alpha, He is the Omega.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You are saying the "consumation" is at the end of the age when God's 'fire' consumes everyone. For the believer it will be rewards, for the unbeliever they will "be no more"....have I got it?
