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Old 01-31-2009, 05:36 AM
 
Location: MI
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I have to wonder if Paul ever met such lofty standards.
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Old 01-31-2009, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Missouri
629 posts, read 714,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
David was not stoned to death because there were not two witnesses. He was not condemned to spiritual death because he was a wicked man who had never turned from his wickedness. (see below)

HK

Wicked man who repents and becomes a righteous man:

Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.


Righteous man who turns back to wickedness:

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

If David had been a righteous man when he sinned with Bathsheba he would have been lost forever...
I take your point about the two witnesses. But God knew. He had instituted the law. Yet He chooses to disregard His own laws, not only that, but punish an innocent baby for the crime. And how many of those Israelites convicted of murder by the courts might have repented if they had had the chance?

If God was going to intervene in the affairs of David in any way, He was bound by His own standards to put David to death, any other course of action would make Him a hypocrite.

David was a 'wicked' man when he sinned with Bathsheba? So God had anointed a wicked man as king of Israel? God concluded the covenant of an everlasting kingdom with a wicked man? God promised a wicked man that his perfect son would come through his line?

It doesn't add up.

Last edited by Ringwielder; 01-31-2009 at 10:55 AM.. Reason: Punctuation
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Old 01-31-2009, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Little Elm, TX
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David was an imperfect man after the sovereign God's heart.
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Old 01-31-2009, 01:01 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,072,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
According to your doctrine, David is burning in hell right now.

2 Samuel 24:10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, O LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing."

This was after David blatantly disobeyed the Lord's command to not take a census. He took a census in willful disobedience to the Lord's command.

This is 12 chapters and many, many years after David's sin with Bathsheeba.

I would also say that David's complete disregard for disciplining his son Amnon for raping his sister Tamar which then led to Absalom murdering Amnon, then Absalom stealing David's throne, I would say that in all of this completely dysfunctional extended family meltdown, David showed something far less than perfection.

And I'm not even going to go into the multiple wives and scores of concubines that David had at his call.

So, the bible clearly states that David sinned in 2 Samuel 24, many years after his repentance before Nathan in 2 Samuel 12. Willful disobedience.

Again, Mr. Kupp, I hold you to your words you have printed here in this thread. I have conveniently quoted them back for you to see at the top of my post. If not before, during all the craziness with Amnon and Tamar and Absalom, if David did not sin one iota, he blatantly did when he took a census of Israel.

On that day, he was lost forever according to you.

You should not be a teacher of scripture dear sir.


Thank you for your opinions - however I prefer God's opinion:

Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.


Ezekiel 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
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Old 01-31-2009, 01:08 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,072,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringwielder View Post
I take your point about the two witnesses. But God knew. He had instituted the law. Yet He chooses to disregard His own laws, not only that, but punish an innocent baby for the crime. And how many of those Israelites convicted of murder by the courts might have repented if they had had the chance?

If God was going to intervene in the affairs of David in any way, He was bound by His own standards to put David to death, any other course of action would make Him a hypocrite.

David was a 'wicked' man when he sinned with Bathsheba? So God had anointed a wicked man as king of Israel? God concluded the covenant of an everlasting kingdom with a wicked man? God promised a wicked man that his perfect son would come through his line?

It doesn't add up.


Hello -

It adds up if you apply the verses correctly - David had not been converted (had not repented of sin completely) before Bathsheba.

Was David a wicked man? Well he took another mans wife and had her husband killed. If that is not a wicked man what is?


HK
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Old 01-31-2009, 07:19 PM
BST
 
Location: Powell, TN
451 posts, read 728,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
Hello -

It adds up if you apply the verses correctly - David had not been converted (had not repented of sin completely) before Bathsheba.

Was David a wicked man? Well he took another mans wife and had her husband killed. If that is not a wicked man what is?


HK
Why should Jesus die for a wicked man?
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Old 01-31-2009, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
4,905 posts, read 5,377,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
Thank you for your opinions - however I prefer God's opinion:

Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.


Ezekiel 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
Then stand by your own words and admit, by your doctrine, that David is now burning in hell.

Again, please desist from spewing scriptures with total disregard to the power of the cross. You haughtily and dangersouly demean the death and ressurection of our dear Savior by your preaching of law that we have been so gloriously set free from. You make Jesus' life and death of no effect. In your world Jesus didn't need to have bothered.

Jesus' had harsh, mean words directed to the pharisees and saducees, those who put themselves on a higher plane by their obeservance of the law. "Brood of vipers, white washed tombs full of dead mens bones..." He told his followers to beware of the leven of the pharisees.

I will be so bold to tell anyone reading your posts: Beware of the leven of the pharisees!

Last edited by Saintmarks; 01-31-2009 at 10:35 PM..
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Old 02-01-2009, 07:28 AM
 
Location: Missouri
629 posts, read 714,440 times
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Quote:
Hello -

It adds up if you apply the verses correctly - David had not been converted (had not repented of sin completely) before Bathsheba.

Was David a wicked man? Well he took another mans wife and had her husband killed. If that is not a wicked man what is?
So God should have put him to death, not his child.
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Old 02-06-2009, 07:37 PM
 
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Harold Cupp,

It is very true and interesting, the fact that we must be completly sinless. This is the very reason why Christ came, he brought the new testament, because the old one was aging away. The old testament could make nothing perfect, thats why king David did all the wicked things that he did, yet God says this about David, "I tore the kingdom away from the house of David and gave it to you, but you have not been like my servant David, who kept my commands and followed me with all his heart, doing only what was right in my eyes." (1 Kings 12:8) This tells us that David did whatever God needed him to do, because God says that he did only what was right in my eyes. The old testament was only an example of what was yet to come, but again it could never bring any one to the point of being freed from the sinful desires, which is our flesh. But when Christ came he brought an new covenent which leads us towards holiness, rightousness, selflessness, purity, true freedom, and such a person is truly free from sin, and never sins again, because he has truly become a new creation in the likeness of Gods Son. It is written, "Be Holy, because I am holy," ( 1 Peter 1:16) we must attain holiness, because if we are truly holy as Christ is holy, then we are powerfull and firm in the word, and only then we have authority that can stand up against the evil forces. The prince of this world will have nothing in us, because our inside will be pure, and free from all wickedness. Soon, this generation will witness these holy people rise up with power and authority, and they will show the true Glory of God the Father through his Glorious Son.
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Old 02-06-2009, 07:43 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,072,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by living word youth View Post
Harold Cupp,

It is very true and interesting, the fact that we must be completly sinless. This is the very reason why Christ came, he brought the new testament, because the old one was aging away. The old testament could make nothing perfect, thats why king David did all the wicked things that he did, yet God says this about David, "I tore the kingdom away from the house of David and gave it to you, but you have not been like my servant David, who kept my commands and followed me with all his heart, doing only what was right in my eyes." (1 Kings 12:8) This tells us that David did whatever God needed him to do, because God says that he did only what was right in my eyes. The old testament was only an example of what was yet to come, but again it could never bring any one to the point of being freed from the sinful desires, which is our flesh. But when Christ came he brought an new covenent which leads us towards holiness, rightousness, selflessness, purity, true freedom, and such a person is truly free from sin, and never sins again, because he has truly become a new creation in the likeness of Gods Son. It is written, "Be Holy, because I am holy," ( 1 Peter 1:16) we must attain holiness, because if we are truly holy as Christ is holy, then we are powerfull and firm in the word, and only then we have authority that can stand up against the evil forces. The prince of this world will have nothing in us, because our inside will be pure, and free from all wickedness. Soon, this generation will witness these holy people rise up with power and authority, and they will show the true Glory of God the Father through his Glorious Son.

Thanks for this post. Yes the creation is watching what is going on here on earth - the revealing of the sons of God.


Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed to us-ward.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.


HK
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