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Old 01-29-2009, 02:27 PM
 
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David’s Sin?

The subject of David’s sin is a difficult question for many Christians. David was a man greatly used by God and yet he committed wicked sins by his adultery with Bathsheba and murdering Uriah – and yet David was forgiven.

Does that mean that the believer who has truly repented and become a child of God can also rebel against God, commit willful sin and be forgiven?

The key to understanding that question lies in the meaning of “true repentance”. David could be forgiven because he had not yet grown to the point where God considered him to be a "righteous man" who had truly repented as defined by the Lord in the book of Ezekiel.

REPENTANCE: (shall surely live)
Ezekiel 18:21 "But if the WICKED turn away from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

WILLFUL SIN: (shall die)
18:24 "But when the RIGHTEOUS turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth
iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live?

All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath
trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

The Lord says that if a WICKED man (as David proved himself to be) turned way from all his sins and become a righteous man he would live, [verse 21] but if the RIGHTEOUS man turned back to his wicked ways he would die. [verse 24]

If, in fact, David had fully repented and turned from his wickedness before his sin with Bathsheba, he would have been a righteous man who had turned away from his righteousness and therefore condemned to death. However, since we know that David was not condemned, we also know that he could not have been a "righteous" man when he committed sin with Bathsheba.

The Biblical truth is that David had never truly repented and been converted until after Bathsheba. Psalms 51 describes David’s repentance from sin. The heading states that it was written *after* he had gone into Bathsheba.

Psalms 51:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto
him, *after he had gone in to Bathsheba*.

Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude
of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

At the time he repented David became “a righteous man” who had turned away from his wickedness forever and was forgiven. If David had fallen back into willful sin he would have been lost forever “in the day” that he rebelled.

The wicked person is delivered in the day that they become righteous by turning from their wickedness and the righteous person is lost in the day that he returns to committing willful sin.

Ezekiel 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The
righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him *in the day* of his transgression: as
for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby *in the day* that he turneth
from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness *in
the day* that he sinneth.

It is the same today, if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness he will be forgiven, but the believer who has been delivered from his sin and then turns back to it (like the dog returning to his vomit) (2 Peter 2:21) will be condemned to death.

The one who has truly repented, become a child of God, received the knowledge of the truth and then rebels against his Lord by choosing to sin willfully has no hope for salvation. His fate is sealed.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Why is there no mercy for such a person? The Scriptures describe them in this way… they have trodden under foot the Son of God, called their covenant to repent an unholy thing and done despite unto (blasphemed) the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy,
who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant,
wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Those who teach that God will always forgive willful sin are teaching the modern version of Satan’s lie to Eve. They say that “Even if you disobey God – ye shall not surely die.”


HK

Notes:

1. “David was a man after God’s heart.”

Act 13:22 And when he had removed him [King Saul), he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. (See 1 Sam 13:14)

David was a man after God’s heart in the sense that David would fulfill God’s will as a Ruler of Israel.

“When it is said that David was a man after God’s own heart, it should be understood, not of his private, but of his public, character. He was a man after God’s own heart, because he ruled the people according to the Divine will.” Clarkes Commentary


2. David committed “presumptuous sin”. He despised the word (commandment) of the Lord.

Nathan to David:

2Sa 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised * thecommandment* of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

Presumptuous sin is described in Numbers 15:

Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth [blasphemes] the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Num 15:31 Because he hath despised * the word* of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

(In the Hebrew text both “the word” and “the commandment” are the
same Hebrew word “dabar” S-1697 )


3. The wicked man can only repent once. After repentance we must live “without committing iniquity

Ezekiel 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life,* without committing iniquity*; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, *and he doth not sin, he shall surely live*

Ezekiel 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; * neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.*


Ezekiel 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
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Old 01-29-2009, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Missouri
629 posts, read 714,440 times
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King David received preferential treatment from God.

If he had been an ordinary Israelite, the law would have been applied and he would have been put to death, NO MATTER HOW REPENTANT HE WAS OR HOW MUCH GOD LOVED HIM. Do you think the judges who judged him would take his repentant plea into consideration? I don't think 'I am really sorry I did it' would cut any ice with them.

And then God murdered his innocent baby child to punish him.
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Old 01-29-2009, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 4,010,306 times
Reputation: 813
Dear Harold, Question...and please...use me as an example...O.k...here I am, born-again in 1988; baptized shortly afterward...received the baptism of the Holy Ghost in 2005; speaking in tongues; received the gift of the Spirit of Understanding; The Spirit of Knowledge; The Spirit of Wisdom; received the gift of Prophecy in 2008; and received the gift of teaching...an encourager, and a lifter up of heads...and I willingly sinned. This last attack of the enemy upon me jerked the slack right out of me! Something happened to me. I had to make a choice, and I knew it...it was time. Time for what? Time for the games to end. Can you explain to me what happened to me? Why, suddenly, did it matter so much to me to do what God's will was for me to do, above my own? (Not that it didn't matter before this...I would just pick and choose when I would listen to the Holy Spirit...I always justified my actions by telling myself that God's love was unconditional...that He would understand because I am a sinner)......I call it enlightenment...revelation, the Word coming alive in me...no longer words...but living, breathing seeds! What happens now? I mean, now that I have come to this place of the awareness of the criticalness of being obedient, and have tasted the bitter-sweetness of the pain of transformation...where am I? In your understanding? I know there will be more trials and temptations for me to go through, but I also know that there is more expected of me now...I am being watched more closely now, and I know it. I've turned a corner. If I willfully sin ever again, am I under the title of "the wicked" still?...and able to "restore" the pledge...or...am I now under the title of "the righteous"...that I shall even die thereby...? When does one know when we have reached that point of "Adoption?" into the Sons of God, from children?

Thank you and God bless you...Love.
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Old 01-30-2009, 07:41 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,072,670 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringwielder View Post
King David received preferential treatment from God.

If he had been an ordinary Israelite, the law would have been applied and he would have been put to death, NO MATTER HOW REPENTANT HE WAS OR HOW MUCH GOD LOVED HIM. Do you think the judges who judged him would take his repentant plea into consideration? I don't think 'I am really sorry I did it' would cut any ice with them.

And then God murdered his innocent baby child to punish him.

David was not stoned to death because there were not two witnesses. He was not condemned to spiritual death because he was a wicked man who had never turned from his wickedness. (see below)

HK

Wicked man who repents and becomes a righteous man:

Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.


Righteous man who turns back to wickedness:

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

If David had been a righteous man when he sinned with Bathsheba he would have been lost forever...
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Old 01-30-2009, 07:54 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,072,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
Dear Harold, Question...and please...use me as an example...O.k...here I am, born-again in 1988; baptized shortly afterward...received the baptism of the Holy Ghost in 2005; speaking in tongues; received the gift of the Spirit of Understanding; The Spirit of Knowledge; The Spirit of Wisdom; received the gift of Prophecy in 2008; and received the gift of teaching...an encourager, and a lifter up of heads...and I willingly sinned. This last attack of the enemy upon me jerked the slack right out of me! Something happened to me. I had to make a choice, and I knew it...it was time. Time for what? Time for the games to end. Can you explain to me what happened to me? Why, suddenly, did it matter so much to me to do what God's will was for me to do, above my own? (Not that it didn't matter before this...I would just pick and choose when I would listen to the Holy Spirit...I always justified my actions by telling myself that God's love was unconditional...that He would understand because I am a sinner)......I call it enlightenment...revelation, the Word coming alive in me...no longer words...but living, breathing seeds! What happens now? I mean, now that I have come to this place of the awareness of the criticalness of being obedient, and have tasted the bitter-sweetness of the pain of transformation...where am I? In your understanding? I know there will be more trials and temptations for me to go through, but I also know that there is more expected of me now...I am being watched more closely now, and I know it. I've turned a corner. If I willfully sin ever again, am I under the title of "the wicked" still?...and able to "restore" the pledge...or...am I now under the title of "the righteous"...that I shall even die thereby...? When does one know when we have reached that point of "Adoption?" into the Sons of God, from children?

Thank you and God bless you...Love.

Hi Verna....

It sounds to me like you are going through the Romans 7 experience where Paul described his realization that "the very thing he did not want to do - that is what he did".

True repentance is a covenant with God to cease from all known sin completely and forever - knowing that if you turn back to willful sin you would be lost forever.

When we first commit to obey God (Repent) we say that the law is "just and holy and good". But when we try to obey it we find ourselves at war with our own flesh. To our dismay we do the very things we would not. What are we to do?? Like Paul we have learned that "the wages of sin is death". Yet we cannot cease from sin!

It is at this point that we also cry out to God, just as Paul did:

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

The answer is found in the next line:

"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"

It is Jesus who will deliver us from the power of sin. Through the power of the Holy Spirit we are able to cease from sin and quit "living after the flesh". Not only able, but we must! That is why Paul carefully warned the Roman Christians...

12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh,
to live according to the flesh--
13 for if you live according to the flesh *you will die,*
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body
* you will live.*


The Spirit of God is bringing you to a point in your life where you can see that you are the slave of your own flesh. You do the very things you do not want to do - just like Paul.

Paul was speaking of the transition from helpless sinner who lived
after the flesh, to victorious son of God who was led by the Spirit.

14 "For all who are led by the Spirit of God
are sons of God." Rom 8:14

Those who knowingly commit sin do not submit to God's law. They are not led by the Spirit of God, they are led by the flesh.

There is a very interesting historical note about the phrase Paul used when he said:

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from

THE BODY OF THIS DEATH?"

The term "the body of this death" refers to the practice of chaining the body of a murdered victim to the body of his murderer. This horrible fate of being consumed by the rotting flesh was the picture Paul was drawing of our being spiritually chained to our flesh which would inevitably be the cause of our spiritual death.

Sorry for the graphic ugliness but one cannot really understand the urgency and desperate plea of Paul to be delivered from his "body of death" without that explanation.

The problem I see is that if a person is taught that he (or she) cannot cease from sin, they will never come to the point where they cry out with Paul for deliverance.

I know that I personally went through a similar experience, where I wanted to obey God's law - but I could not. In helpless desperation, I cried out to God for help. I knew that if He wanted me to obey His commandments, He would have to make it possible.

Soon after, I found in me the grace to obey. I was now able to resist the power of the flesh, where before I could not.

It makes sense that God works in this way. If we were able to cease from sin without first having come to the point of total helplessness, we would probably take credit for being able to cease from sin.

I know that I will never take pride in being able to obey God's law, because I to was forced to cry out with Paul, "who will deliver me from this body of this death."

And I to, with everlasting thankfulness am able to say: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"

God bless sister...

HK

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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Old 01-30-2009, 08:46 PM
 
Location: In the♥of Jesus !
9,590 posts, read 5,312,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
Hi Verna....

It sounds to me like you are going through the Romans 7 experience where Paul described his realization that "the very thing he did not want to do - that is what he did".

True repentance is a covenant with God to cease from all known sin completely and forever - knowing that if you turn back to willful sin you would be lost forever.

When we first commit to obey God (Repent) we say that the law is "just and holy and good". But when we try to obey it we find ourselves at war with our own flesh. To our dismay we do the very things we would not. What are we to do?? Like Paul we have learned that "the wages of sin is death". Yet we cannot cease from sin!

It is at this point that we also cry out to God, just as Paul did:

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

The answer is found in the next line:

"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"

It is Jesus who will deliver us from the power of sin. Through the power of the Holy Spirit we are able to cease from sin and quit "living after the flesh". Not only able, but we must! That is why Paul carefully warned the Roman Christians...

12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh,
to live according to the flesh--
13 for if you live according to the flesh *you will die,*
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body
* you will live.*


The Spirit of God is bringing you to a point in your life where you can see that you are the slave of your own flesh. You do the very things you do not want to do - just like Paul.

Paul was speaking of the transition from helpless sinner who lived
after the flesh, to victorious son of God who was led by the Spirit.

14 "For all who are led by the Spirit of God
are sons of God." Rom 8:14

Those who knowingly commit sin do not submit to God's law. They are not led by the Spirit of God, they are led by the flesh.

There is a very interesting historical note about the phrase Paul used when he said:

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from

THE BODY OF THIS DEATH?"

The term "the body of this death" refers to the practice of chaining the body of a murdered victim to the body of his murderer. This horrible fate of being consumed by the rotting flesh was the picture Paul was drawing of our being spiritually chained to our flesh which would inevitably be the cause of our spiritual death.

Sorry for the graphic ugliness but one cannot really understand the urgency and desperate plea of Paul to be delivered from his "body of death" without that explanation.

The problem I see is that if a person is taught that he (or she) cannot cease from sin, they will never come to the point where they cry out with Paul for deliverance.

I know that I personally went through a similar experience, where I wanted to obey God's law - but I could not. In helpless desperation, I cried out to God for help. I knew that if He wanted me to obey His commandments, He would have to make it possible.

Soon after, I found in me the grace to obey. I was now able to resist the power of the flesh, where before I could not.

It makes sense that God works in this way. If we were able to cease from sin without first having come to the point of total helplessness, we would probably take credit for being able to cease from sin.

I know that I will never take pride in being able to obey God's law, because I to was forced to cry out with Paul, "who will deliver me from this body of this death."

And I to, with everlasting thankfulness am able to say: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"

God bless sister...

HK

Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Amen...!!!

Praise the Lord Jesus for the testimony of the faithfulness of our God's mercy and grace to deliver....
Jesus is the truth and He came to set the captive free!! Praise the Lord!!!

John 8:34-36
Jesus answered them, "Most as assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Blessings to you...all!!
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Old 01-30-2009, 08:56 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,072,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlythecosmo View Post
Amen...!!!

Praise the Lord Jesus for the testimony of the faithfulness of our God's mercy and grace to deliver....
Jesus is the truth and He came to set the captive free!! Praise the Lord!!!

John 8:34-36
Jesus answered them, "Most as assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Blessings to you...all!!


Good verse Curly - isn't it amazing how many people in this forum read that verse and do not apply it to themselves. They say they commit sin but they are NOT slaves of sin....

The Son makes us free FROM sin not free TO sin...

God bless

HK
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:12 PM
 
Location: In the♥of Jesus !
9,590 posts, read 5,312,151 times
Reputation: 17617
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
Good verse Curly - isn't it amazing how many people in this forum read that verse and do not apply it to themselves. They say they commit sin but they are NOT slaves of sin....

The Son makes us free FROM sin not free TO sin...

God bless

HK
Amen....A little over a year ago our God showed me the difference....and was set free! Hallelujah!!
They can call me legalistic all they want....
I praise God.... because this one will be a daughter that abides in the house forever!!!

Blessings
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:57 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 4,010,306 times
Reputation: 813
Quote:
Originally Posted by curlythecosmo View Post
Amen....A little over a year ago our God showed me the difference....and was set free! Hallelujah!!
They can call me legalistic all they want....
I praise God.... because this one will be a daughter that abides in the house forever!!!

Blessings
AMEN curly!!...and this sister will be right there with you...in GLORY!! HALLELUJAH!!! HALLELUJAH!!! We "SEE" curly!! We "SEE!" I love you so much!!! The TRUTH has set us FREE!!!!! HE IS FAITHFULL AND TRUE!!!!....LOVE!!
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Old 01-31-2009, 01:35 AM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
4,905 posts, read 5,377,961 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
David’s Sin?


If David had fallen back into willful sin he would have been lost forever “in the day” that he rebelled.

According to your doctrine, David is burning in hell right now.

2 Samuel 24:10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, O LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing."

This was after David blatantly disobeyed the Lord's command to not take a census. He took a census in willful disobedience to the Lord's command.

This is 12 chapters and many, many years after David's sin with Bathsheeba.

I would also say that David's complete disregard for disciplining his son Amnon for raping his sister Tamar which then led to Absalom murdering Amnon, then Absalom stealing David's throne, I would say that in all of this completely dysfunctional extended family meltdown, David showed something far less than perfection.

And I'm not even going to go into the multiple wives and scores of concubines that David had at his call.

So, the bible clearly states that David sinned in 2 Samuel 24, many years after his repentance before Nathan in 2 Samuel 12. Willful disobedience.

Again, Mr. Kupp, I hold you to your words you have printed here in this thread. I have conveniently quoted them back for you to see at the top of my post. If not before, during all the craziness with Amnon and Tamar and Absalom, if David did not sin one iota, he blatantly did when he took a census of Israel.

On that day, he was lost forever according to you.

You should not be a teacher of scripture dear sir.
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