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No, but isn`t it cool that, trinity, rapture, and eternal torment aren`t in there either!
Actually rapture is the English translation of the Latin word rapturo, which is a translation of the Greek word harpazō*(to be caught up) ... 1 Thessalonians 4:17
When you say that no sperm and egg joined, I wonder if you've really thought through this. If Jesus, while wholly God, was also wholly human, then His mortal existance did, in fact, begin with conception. Mary was told that she would "conceive." Human beings are conceived when a sperm and an egg join. There is no other way.
Hey katz, I don`t necessarily believe that a sperm had to be involved in the conception of Jesus. He is called the second Adam. Jesus was alive before he was conceived. The word conceived in Luke`s gospel is "sullambano" which means to help take,capture,clasp,seize. I think it is entirely possible that no sperm was involved. Just because other human lives start that way does not mean Jesus`s did. He did not have an earthly father,so perhaps another means was used by God.
however, as the bible does give its answer to the question of "how ?" I think it is best to just allow the bible to speak for itself and not try to twist in a fancy answer we just made up on our own.
the bibles answer is just going to have to be good enough
I don't think anybody's disputing that, Alan. Nobody's twisting anything. The Bible doesn't say one way or another whether sperm or an egg was involved. All we know for sure, and I think we can all agree on these points:
1. Jesus was the Only Begotten Son of God.
2. The Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and the power of the Highest came upon her.
3. Jesus' mother, Mary, conceived Him in some miraculous way, and remained a virgin after his conception.
Does anybody (you, Justamere, or anyone else) have any issues with these three points of doctrine.
I don't think anybody's disputing that, Alan. Nobody's twisting anything. The Bible doesn't say one way or another whether sperm or an egg was involved. All we know for sure, and I think we can all agree on these points:
1. Jesus was the Only Begotten Son of God.
2. The Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and the power of the Highest came upon her.
3. Jesus' mother, Mary, conceived Him in some miraculous way, and remained a virgin after his conception.
Does anybody (you, Justamere, or anyone else) have any issues with these three points of doctrine.
I don't, except in my own "nutty" way I suggested the possibility that if Mary had been impregnated in the traditional way, logically she could still have remained a virgin because she had not had sexual intercourse with a mortal. The situation was totally unique and unknown prior to its occurence. The word "virgin" could simply refer to the fact that Mary had known (had sexual intercourse with) no man. So if she was pregnant (as she was) it was a miracle. That's how I see it.
Just because the word "sperm" is not written in the bible regarding the conception of Jesus does not mean that there was no sperm involved. !
well, the bible doesnt say it was tons of things....
The bible does not say it was or was not due to a UFO beaming a strange light into the room where Mary stood, etc...
But what the Bible does say is a direct answer that the angel gave to this very same question.
At that point it comes down to a matter of a person's ability to trust that the answer is correct, and can be trusted, and has no need for us to dream up more help for it...
Yes, Mary was a virgin all the time she had Jesus inside her.
but that is where I stop that line of thinking...
The idea that Mary was a virgin forever?
Well that is a Catholic teaching, infact it is one of the core Catholic teachings that form the split between Catholics and other Christian churches.
Now I myself have no problem with Mary and her husband getting it on after Jesus was born.
I dont see the Text teaching she was always a virgin after Christ was born.
But if it turns out Im wrong on that count, I have no problem with that as well...
I guess Kat I wanted you to go over this list and look for a place you
would like some support for, or ask a question about its meanings
Well, I'll be happy to try. I already contributed towards your stellar reputation, saying I thought you did a better job than I'd seen any philosopher or theologian has ever done of explaining the Trinity. Your definition actually matches fairly closely my definition of the Godhead. I really hate being picky, and I would have to be somewhat picky to find very much fault with any of what you've said. But, since you asked, I'll comment on each section and add my own comments, which I suspect you'll take issue with. But judging from your posts so far, I can at least anticipate that you'll be respectful of our differences.
Quote:
The Son is God
The Son became man
The Son is still man and will always be man
The Son is always God
I agree. Plain and simple and 100%.
Quote:
The Father is God
He always is God
Always will be God...
I also agree, however, I'm sure you also believe that the Father has no physical form. Here I disagree. When the scriptures state that we were created in His image, I understand that literally. I believe that we look like our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. I believe the Father is the archetypal, perfect heavenly man, an immortal spirit clothed in flesh and bones like His Son. I believe that when Stephen looked into the heavens and saw the Son of God sitting on the right hand of the Father, he saw two glorious beings, a divine Father and a divine Son.
Quote:
The Spirit is God
Always will be too.
No disagreement or futher comments.
Quote:
The Son is not the Father,
and never was or will be the Father
The Spirit is not the Son nor the Father and never was and never will be.
Right on.
Quote:
The WORD was with God
The Word was God
The WORD became flesh.
Agreed.
Quote:
The Son was with the Father and the Spirit
The Son is God
The Son became flesh
The Son died
Quote:
The Father raised the Son back to Life
The Spirit raised the son back to life
The Son raised himself back to life.
I've never given this a whole lot of thought. I believe that the Father gave the Son the power to lay down His own life and take it up again. Therefore, the Son did so by His own power, but that power was given to Him by His Father.
Quote:
all 3 , always in union
I agree. I believe they are "one" but I don't agree with the concept of three persons in a single substance, probably because my belief system never uses the word "substance" to define God. I believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are absolutely and perfectly united in will, purpose, mind and heart. There is no friction between them, no opposition, only perfect unity in their work and in their glory, which is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.
(The best understanding of the trinity by the way)
Quote:
The Son worships the Father
The Spirit knows the inner heart of the Father
Again, I agree wholeheartedly.
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