U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-06-2009, 12:00 AM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
6,719 posts, read 9,369,233 times
Reputation: 5114

Advertisements

Carlos! Long time no see!! I am so glad to see you have made it to a wonderful climate and aren't spending the winter in Toronto.

I might not have told you before, but I am a musician by training and was a full time worship leader for churches in the past.

I was paid as a staff pastor to organize the musicians of the church, to plan services, to lead services, to train musicians. I had other staff duties outside of the music/worship realm as well. I made a nice salary as this was a full time position. I did have a lot of talented musicians that held other jobs that put a lot of time and effort and gave of their talent freely to the church. Many were blessed.

Now I am in a position outside the church. The shoe is on the other foot now. I am very active in the music ministry of my church here in TX, I do not get paid for being on the worship team even though I have a college degree in music and 25 years of experience in the field.

The music minister that I now serve under spent many years in the Christian music business. He did not become as well known as some, but has had songs that made Christian radio stations. He has written with many of the big names in Christian music, the most notable one being Steven Curtis Chapman.

Perhaps you don't realize this, but it costs many, many thousands of dollars to produce a quality CD. Time in recording studios is expensive. The top notch equipment alone in a studio costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. Engineers and technicians that run these types of places are highly skilled and their labor is worth them making a decent living. The cost of production, the actual CD itself, the artwork on the cover, the typesetting of the words, the actual plastic that wraps it up, the distributors that get it all over the country, etc, etc, etc, these things cost money.

My minister here as three children, lives in a modest house, drives modest cars, he never made riches in the Christian music business. I am sure there are a few of the big names that have made what would be to you and me "rich" but nothing along the lines of the superstars in the secular music world. And if they did make a lot, then glory to God, it is his place to bless and our place not to be envious or covetous.

I think you are confusing someones spiritual gifts with their craft. You wash windows and do other things to earn a living. You worked and the bible says that the laborer is worthy of his hire. Christians that write and produce Christian music are not withholding their spiritual gifts, but they have developed a craft and that craft is worthy of them making a living. If they had to get a job outside of their craft, then did all their music making for free on the side, when would they have time for their families and for basic things like mowing the lawn and sleeping?

Carlos, I believe that you are a special person that God has called to live a life that few of us would be willing to do. You have an ability in your freedom from most earthly possessions to be free to go and do. This lifestyle has left you with less in disposable income than most that post here.

I believe that God will provide you with music that will bless you and keep your Spirit up and refreshed. I am going to be straightforward with you and say that instead of bemoaning the fact that Christian music costs a few dollars, either to purchase a CD or to download it online, that you instead ask God to bless you with the avenue to have this available to you. Either blessing you with some extra dough to buy the music outright or have it brought to you by other means. Our God is big enough to do this for you Carlos.

There are free avenues available. I know San Diego is not in the bible belt like I am here in Dallas, but I have four different FM stations that I listen to that play different types of music. I am sure there are some free online Christian radio stations where you can here some good stuff. If nothing else, go to You Tube and search by your favorite group and not only hear it but watch it being performed live. I love the Hillsongs group from Australia. I go to You Tube and search Hillsongs and not only hear it, but get to witness a great worship service and it is totally free.

As far as Christian Counselors go, I know many many churches that have counseling available at no cost as well. I do know some that are licensed counselors that operate within the state systems that are at the same time Christian and do charge a fee similar to someone going to see a psychologist. I have no problem with that, if that is their profession. But you have great churches there in San Diego and I know that there is free spirit filled Christian counseling as well.

But asking for these people to do it all for free is like you running your window cleaning business for free or doing computer work for free or writing an article for free. How are you going to earn a living? The new testament believers earned a living as well. In the temple in the old testament, there were ministers and worshippers that were paid, at least they had their livelihoods met by their work in the religious field and did not earn a living outside it.

There are professions that are Christian, but they are professions and are worthy of their hire. Your initial example of the surgeon is beautiful when seeing the surgeon as God, but no earthly surgeon would train anyone for free. Medical school costs BIG bucks.

Carlos, I am praying for you and will ask you to join with me in faith that God will bless you with CDs or an Ipod full of Christian music that will bless you. Is that a deal?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-06-2009, 01:09 AM
 
Location: Seward, Alaska
2,739 posts, read 7,543,266 times
Reputation: 1956
I can see your point, and to a certain extent, I think it has some validity. But, musicians do have to make a living. So...what to do?
Well....as for me, I seldom listen to very much music. But, when I do, I "tune in" to one of the many free radio stations on the internet, and just dial in to a Christian station, and listen. No, you can't download any of the music, but you can listen to it 24/7. Just do a Google search for "free internet radio stations". Most of them are real, actual, radio stations that have a live feed onto the internet. There are a lot of them. It works for me...

Bud
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-06-2009, 06:46 AM
 
9,636 posts, read 3,381,940 times
Reputation: 10575
Carlos, I see the point you are trying to make, it is the same problem I have with some big time preachers charging 20,000.00 to come preach at a church or event. This seems to go against the spirit of what Jesus taught.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-06-2009, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Living in the San Diego area
1,040 posts, read 1,825,290 times
Reputation: 228
Hi Saintmarks!

Nice to see you too!

And thank you, thank you for your reasoned and well intended response as opposed to the usual Christian bashing that seems to go on here.

Just a couple of quick thoughts...I will respond more later...perhaps this morning.

I did not say what I did just because I do not have access to great music as a result of myself not being able to afford CD's at this time in my life.

What I said came about as a result of trying to find some worship music from the Vineyard group of churches...only to see that they hang on to their music so tightly that it's not generally available on YouTube or anywhere else. In fact when I tried to access it from Canada somewhere all I ever got was a notice saying that their music could not be accessed over the Internet anywhere else other than in the US.

Which all led me to think about the Christian music industry and the lack of great worship songs that are available to people all over the world...who cannot readily afford the music.

Also...and this will be my last thought before I get to some stuff I have to do this morning...I think you might have missed the post where I expanded on the difference between a Christian musician operating in a natural talent (which I see nothing wrong with charging for) and in a spiritual gift that is expressed through music (which I do not believe they should charge for).

Given that all Christian musicians are charging for their songs or distributing their songs only through channels where people wanting the benefit of listening to their songs must pay either...

- all Christian musicians (at least in North America) are operating in natural talent

OR

- all Christian musicians are abusing a gift from God expressed through music that the Lord would want them to give away for free (as all spiritual gifts are intended to be).

Again I appreciate your reasoned response and will write more a little later.

Carlos
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-06-2009, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Living in the San Diego area
1,040 posts, read 1,825,290 times
Reputation: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk View Post
I can see your point, and to a certain extent, I think it has some validity. But, musicians do have to make a living. So...what to do?
Well....as for me, I seldom listen to very much music. But, when I do, I "tune in" to one of the many free radio stations on the internet, and just dial in to a Christian station, and listen. No, you can't download any of the music, but you can listen to it 24/7. Just do a Google search for "free internet radio stations". Most of them are real, actual, radio stations that have a live feed onto the internet. There are a lot of them. It works for me...

Bud
Hi Bud. All well and good. I myself listen to Jango, Last.fm, and YouTube music videos.

And yes...I gain much benefit spiritually from listening to such music.

But again the issue is not whether one can listen to some music for free over the Internet. The issue is are Christian musicians operating in a natural talent or in a spiritual gift such that they should not charge for their music in the one case and charge for their music in the other case.

Incidentally it may be difficult for North Americans to even contemplate what it is like to be poor and to be able to do little of anything about it. I am thankfully not in that boat. I am much poorer and live a much humbler lifestyle than most here in North America but I do not consider myself poor by any means when compared to people in the world who are truly poor.

How are the poor supposed to listen even to the free stuff over the Internet? They can't afford a CD, a CD player, and much less a laptop or desktop.

What if I see a homeless man get saved? Such that music would really lift his spirit and edify him? He can't afford anything. And I can't afford to go and buy him a CD and CD player. The Christians are such tight wads in North America that it's useless to even consider going to a church and asking for help to enable that homeless man to be provided with a way to listen to wonderful Christian music.

New Testament Christians sold homes to meet needs in each other. We are such tight wads in North America that getting your average "Christian" to part with a measly few pieces of green colored paper, otherwise called mammon, to enable a brother or sister to benefit in some way...is worse than trying to get a person to go to the dentist and have their teeth pulled!

I don't speak of all North American Christians Bud. So please don't take what I said personally. There are certainly exceptions.

But in a land where the pursuit of the American Dream has been a mantra of the religion of materialism for as long as I can remember...the church has become infested with materialism and wordliness such that it has become a complete disgrace to the name of Jesus Christ. I speak overall because like as with individuals there are certainly exceptions that don't fit what I am saying.

There is no better way to see the truth of what I am saying than to observe the way most churches treat the poor in our society. And especially poor Christians. The least of our brethren I believe the bible calls it. I don't mean the homeless man who doesn't want to work. That's not who I refer to as the poor. Even then churches, the people in those churches, don't want to get their hands dirty and instead of dealing with them personally...they give a pittance of their green paper to some organization which in turn feeds the homeless and treats them like dirt in the process. They just don't want to get their hands dirty.

But I have seen truly poor persons who have gotten into their circumstances through little or no fault of their own. Unfortunate individuals who have been beaten up by life.

And the Church of the living God who is and who was and who ever shall be and who died for all our sins that we, the filthy rags that we were, might put on the robe of righteousness and shine like the noon day sun with the life of Christ in us...what do we do?

Nothing.

Or so little that what we give is as insulting as someone going to a restaurant and eating a wonderful meal and getting excellent service, leaving 7 cents as a tip on the table!

Instead of repenting from our lack of willingness to lay our all at the foot of the cross and to give up our lives in service to one another as an expression of our love for God...we go around smug in our wonderful and expensive church buildings, doing our Christian things, hanging out with our Christian friends, and otherwise enjoying the Christian life...while the world goes to hell in a handbasket.

It makes me sick and often times ashamed to be associated with those who call themselves Christians. Sometimes...I want absolutely not one thing to do with the Christians and much prefer hanging out on trolleys and buses interacting with the poor and those who are beaten up by life. Loving them whether they become Christians or not but allowing God to use me to bring some light into their lives.

I sometimes ask myself where all the other Christians are? I can find them on Sundays alright but the rest of the week? They are about as evident as the ants under our feet in the grass. There...but not there. Around...but not recognizable. Until the next Sunday when they can be seen again in their church buildings and in the buffet restaurants where they congregate for a while to relish in each other's company. While the world goes to hell in a handbasket.

If there any Christians in San Diego reading this...you want to come with me? To hang out on the trolleys and buses? You want to get real with your Christianity...out where the people are? With one another? Every day of the week. PM me and let's talk.

Carlos
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-06-2009, 03:20 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,632,483 times
Reputation: 1323
1 Corinthians 9

Hi, I believe that the apostle Paul spoke of the rights of those who preach the gospel. They have the right to receive the pay as they make their living by this, but Paul also says that he did not use this right. So this says to me that it is not wrong for a spiritually gifted musician to earn a living in this way, however, he or she may want to take the path of the apostle, and not use this right and give, free of charge. Just my view. God bless.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-06-2009, 04:24 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
27 posts, read 32,629 times
Reputation: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigthirsty View Post
As far as I know Jesus is the only person who turned water into wine. As such people need to make a living. In order to do there needs to be money. These are rules we are bound by.. If you have extra give it.. its called the music business.. not the music charity.
That response clearly showed up on my greed radar. Christians are not supposed to operate by the world's standards. As a Christian musician, your main focus should be getting music out there that will help draw men unto Jesus Christ in order to save their souls from hell, not making sure your pockets are lined up first.

What if Jesus felt that way about his gift of salvation. He sure did do alot of laboring and suffering and put literal blood, sweat, and tears into making salvation a FREE gift to ALL. What if he was selfish and put a price on that??

Quote:
Originally Posted by akm4 View Post
I'm a songwriter and a Christian. Your idea of free music is great in theory, but how would it work?

If music is all free, there will be very, very little of it.

Cut off the revenue stream as you suggest, and here's what won't get paid-

The label. No more promotion and distribution.
The producer. Who will produce the tracks?
The studio. We all better have great garage set-ups!
The artist. Only independently wealthy artists from now on.
The writer. I'd have to get another job to support my music hobby.
The publisher, the A&R guys, agent, managers, art dept.s, etc. No more touring, either.

You see the problem? It's bad enough I have thieves online stealing my music
This is 2009 and there are LOADS of technology out here that allows you to make quality music right in your home like:

-Protools (ppl in the industry actually use this)
-Ableton Live
-GarageBand (apple computers)
-Logic Pro

There are also beat making softwares like:

-Fruity Loops Studio
-Ableton Live (used for recording vocals as well)
-Logic Pro (on apple computers) and
-Reason

Not to mention if you know how to play an instrument, that makes you a producer already!!

As far as promotion, you can do that for free using:

-Youtube and/or Godtube (If the music is quality, the word will get out and youtube is great for getting your gospel message to thousands globally. You could also make a decent low budget video to accompany your songs and post on your youtube account, trust me, I've seen it done!!)
-Myspace (everybody's on there)

For distribution, you can use one of the TONS of FREE digital audio hosting providers like zshare... you can also distribute your music digially for free from Youtube and Myspace as well.

Nobody really buys CD's like that anymore, distributing your music digitally is way cheaper and easier. I know a guy who makes his songs free, but he's an up and coming secular artist. For right now, he just uses other established well known artist's instrumentals and remixes their lyrics to sing it in his own way, but he does in fact go in the studio to lay down perfect vocals and makes the MP3's available for free through zshare for ppl to upload on their comps, ipod's or anywhere else. Heres an example of the calibur of music that can be made availble to the public for free on your own dime:zSHARE - 14 - HI Sun _J-DaVeY Cover_.mp3

As far as labels, A&R's and managers, none of that is really needed when you're making your music yourself. You can book your own "gigs" and let them know that you'll accept a freewill offering. I understand that travel expenses cost, you could ask them to cover your expenses or at least help you if they can't cover the full cost. You can set up a FREE Paypal account to receive payments and post the link for it letting ppl know that if they want to donate, they can do so by sending money there. You could maybe get a post office box for money orders or checks.

We need some "Ryan Leslie's" in the Christian music arena. If any of you don't know who he is, he's a secular singer/songwriter/producer, basically a one stop shop, he makes every aspect of a song by himself.

Oh, and lets not forget to copyright copyright copyright to prevent stealing!!! We can also do this ourselves by submitting the forms and small fee to the U.S Copyright office in Washington D.C!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Public_Newsense View Post
Are you kidding? God gives everyone gifts (talents) and if you use it for good--to make a living, minister to others, both, etc., there's nothing wrong with that. God blesses us with these things b'c he wants us to be prosperous in all things, not just some. Besides, who do you want the money to go to after the producers pay to produce it and get it on the market? It costs money to produce and that brings in profits. There's nothing wrong with earning money through the gifts God bestows us. It's a good, honest living. Since when do Christians deserve a free-ride, that is, getting anything and everything Christian related for free? Someone has to pay to get it to the public.
Every Christian is getting a "free ride" by accepting the FREE gift of salvation, so there goes your theory!! There are TOO many free resources out here use that excuse of "somebody's gotta pay". Yeah, you're right, somebody's gotta pay, and if you're geniune about seeing souls saved, you'll be that somebody and you would trust in the Lord to compensate you adequately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Carlos,

Just to clarify where you are going with this Carlos . . . What do you do to make a living? Are you paid for it? If so, why do you charge? Your abilities are a gift from God . . . why do you charge for using them?
Theres a difference between being a cashier to help sell the products and services that are supposed to be and want to be sold. Jesus is NOT a product and should never be treated as such!! Jesus told us to freely give as he has given unto us. Even though Paul says that it's okay to reap money for spiritual service (reap is the key word, the money should not be demanded, it should be OFFERED as in a freewill offering or some other type of donation for your service, but certaintly not demanded), however, he said he would not partake in demanding money b/c then he'd be ABUSING his power in the gospel!! The same goes for musicians, especially when you have musicians who's lyrics come straight out of the bible word for word. Singing the Gospel is no different from preaching it. Both are essentially geared towards the saving of souls!! David's book of psalms is a prime example of someone making their music available for free!!

1 Corinthians 9:11-19

Quote:
11If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

12If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
13Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
15But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
16For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
18What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. 19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

Last edited by {Ukiaon}; 03-06-2009 at 04:54 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-06-2009, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Living in the San Diego area
1,040 posts, read 1,825,290 times
Reputation: 228
Ukiaon...I don't know what corner of the world you popped out of but may I say...

AMEN and AMEN and AMEN to what you shared!!!

I completely 100% agree with what you said. THAT *IS* God's perspective. Plain and simple.

Just yesterday I went to a well known Christian music's groups web site and was looking through their copyright and licencing restrictions and was struck by the contradiction between what they say, that they want the world to better know Jesus through their music, and the limiting of that through their desire to make money from their music.

Their copyright and licencing struck me as just another party wanting money at the expense of having their gifts used by God to His greatest glory and honor.

When it is HE that gives them the inspiration to create what they do. When HE gave his all that we might live in Him. Freely.

Everyone one of us could use more money. But we are not to hold hostage the gifts of his Holy Spirit within us to the desire we have to make money. We are to freely give as He gave to us.

We need to stop living for ourselves. Plain and simple.

Jesus said that if we want to follow Him...we are to take up our cross, deny self, and follow Him.

Being a Christian is no picnic. Taking up our cross and denying the natural inclinations of our hearts to serve Him and our fellow man is a most bloody affair. It will cost us everything.

To deny persons who are truly poor the opportunity to have their spirits lifted through a gift of the Spirit in the lives of musicians for no other reason that the musicians and their producers want to make money...is an affront to the God who gave His precious and only begotten Son to die for us! Freely.

We are not to look upon things and do things in the way the world does. We are to operate under a different principle than is to be found in how others do things. We are to operate by faith in the living God. Trusting Him for our needs while loving others as He would want us to do.

It seems to me that the Christian music industry is ripe with greed. Worse yet, ripe with greed under a false front of doing things to truly honor God.

Carlos
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-06-2009, 10:25 AM
 
4,439 posts, read 7,975,573 times
Reputation: 1460
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
Ukiaon...I don't know what corner of the world you popped out of but may I say...

AMEN and AMEN and AMEN to what you shared!!!

I completely 100% agree with what you said. THAT *IS* God's perspective. Plain and simple.

Just yesterday I went to a well known Christian music's groups web site and was looking through their copyright and licencing restrictions and was struck by the contradiction between what they say, that they want the world to better know Jesus through their music, and the limiting of that through their desire to make money from their music.

Their copyright and licencing struck me as just another party wanting money at the expense of having their gifts used by God to His greatest glory and honor.

When it is HE that gives them the inspiration to create what they do. When HE gave his all that we might live in Him. Freely.

Everyone one of us could use more money. But we are not to hold hostage the gifts of his Holy Spirit within us to the desire we have to make money. We are to freely give as He gave to us.

We need to stop living for ourselves. Plain and simple.

Jesus said that if we want to follow Him...we are to take up our cross, deny self, and follow Him.

Being a Christian is no picnic. Taking up our cross and denying the natural inclinations of our hearts to serve Him and our fellow man is a most bloody affair. It will cost us everything.

To deny persons who are truly poor the opportunity to have their spirits lifted through a gift of the Spirit in the lives of musicians for no other reason that the musicians and their producers want to make money...is an affront to the God who gave His precious and only begotten Son to die for us! Freely.

We are not to look upon things and do things in the way the world does. We are to operate under a different principle than is to be found in how others do things. We are to operate by faith in the living God. Trusting Him for our needs while loving others as He would want us to do.

It seems to me that the Christian music industry is ripe with greed. Worse yet, ripe with greed under a false front of doing things to truly honor God.

Carlos
I hope when you sell your house or sell stock or sell anything you give ALL proceeds to God in what ever way you see fit. Remember.. You didn't buy that house. God allowed you to buy it. You shouldn't profit from it.

Also all forms of compensation you receive for any work you do should immediately be turned over to God. He allowed you to use your gifts and you are profiting from them.

If it will help I can serve as a proxy for God. I can setup a paypal account for you and if you wish you can forward all forms of compensation to me. I'll handle everything accordingly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-06-2009, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Living in the San Diego area
1,040 posts, read 1,825,290 times
Reputation: 228
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigthirsty View Post
I hope when you sell your house or sell stock or sell anything you give ALL proceeds to God in what ever way you see fit. Remember.. You didn't buy that house. God allowed you to buy it. You shouldn't profit from it.

Also all forms of compensation you receive for any work you do should immediately be turned over to God. He allowed you to use your gifts and you are profiting from them.

If it will help I can serve as a proxy for God. I can setup a paypal account for you and if you wish you can forward all forms of compensation to me. I'll handle everything accordingly.
Please note bigthirsty that I did not say it was greedy necessarily to want to make as much as we can from the sale of a house or to make as much per hour as we can in our work or other such things.

I said that it is greed to limit a gift of the Spirit (not a natural gift) meant by God to be used for the edification of all within the Church...by not allowing the manifestation of that gift to be exercised freely before all who might benefit from it.

You are mixing the freedom in Christ that we have to honor Him by making wise use of what He allows us to be stewards of with the need to exercise the gifts of the Spirit freely and without expectation of return.

Incidentally selling a house for a profit can also be greedy. If we are selling the house for more than we paid for it simply to enlarge out bank accounts. We should do ALL to the glory and honor of God.

One can sell a house for profit for self or one can sell a house for profit to further the Kingdom of God by either providing for our families, helping the poor, or any number of other...non-greedy reasons.

The crux of the issue as to whether the sale of house or the sale of Christian music is greedy has to do with WHY we want to make money.

Is it for self? Just for self? To further our interests in this life or God's?

If a Christian musician can honestly say that they want to make money from their music such that only those who pay will be allowed to listen to their God inspired music...for the honor and glory of God then there is nothing wrong that.

But how a Christian musician can do that when the God who inspires that music wants all to freely hear what He inspires in us to write, talk, and sing about...is quite beyond me to justify. Scripturally at least.

Jesus gave His words to the world freely. We should all go and do likewise for the true honor and glory of God. Trusting in Him to provide for our needs as we focus on loving others.

Carlos
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top