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Old 07-19-2009, 02:08 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,533,506 times
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Simple: If you don't want professional singers/artists/musicians to come in then don't call them in (or tell them "no" if they call you).

Problem solved.

If you do want professional musicians then call them and ask how much they need to come in - if you want 'professionals'.



P.S. Hi Carlos!
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:31 PM
 
2 posts, read 4,655 times
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Default Carlos Right On

You are right on brother. How many unbelievers will stay that way because they see the commercialization of Christianity? What is the penalty for leading just one child from Christ? A Christian musician can donate his time for recording, a Christian producer can donate his time for producing etc... Christian musicians may have to work at Starbucks to pay the rent and volunteer their time to proclaim the Lord's word. Do you think the Lord likes people being paid to worship him. Does he feel loved by it? I think no more than a man should feel loved by a woman being paid to love him.
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Old 12-07-2009, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Florida
478 posts, read 633,914 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Carlos! Long time no see!! I am so glad to see you have made it to a wonderful climate and aren't spending the winter in Toronto.

I might not have told you before, but I am a musician by training and was a full time worship leader for churches in the past.

I was paid as a staff pastor to organize the musicians of the church, to plan services, to lead services, to train musicians. I had other staff duties outside of the music/worship realm as well. I made a nice salary as this was a full time position. I did have a lot of talented musicians that held other jobs that put a lot of time and effort and gave of their talent freely to the church. Many were blessed.

Now I am in a position outside the church. The shoe is on the other foot now. I am very active in the music ministry of my church here in TX, I do not get paid for being on the worship team even though I have a college degree in music and 25 years of experience in the field.

The music minister that I now serve under spent many years in the Christian music business. He did not become as well known as some, but has had songs that made Christian radio stations. He has written with many of the big names in Christian music, the most notable one being Steven Curtis Chapman.

Perhaps you don't realize this, but it costs many, many thousands of dollars to produce a quality CD. Time in recording studios is expensive. The top notch equipment alone in a studio costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. Engineers and technicians that run these types of places are highly skilled and their labor is worth them making a decent living. The cost of production, the actual CD itself, the artwork on the cover, the typesetting of the words, the actual plastic that wraps it up, the distributors that get it all over the country, etc, etc, etc, these things cost money.

My minister here as three children, lives in a modest house, drives modest cars, he never made riches in the Christian music business. I am sure there are a few of the big names that have made what would be to you and me "rich" but nothing along the lines of the superstars in the secular music world. And if they did make a lot, then glory to God, it is his place to bless and our place not to be envious or covetous.

I think you are confusing someones spiritual gifts with their craft. You wash windows and do other things to earn a living. You worked and the bible says that the laborer is worthy of his hire. Christians that write and produce Christian music are not withholding their spiritual gifts, but they have developed a craft and that craft is worthy of them making a living. If they had to get a job outside of their craft, then did all their music making for free on the side, when would they have time for their families and for basic things like mowing the lawn and sleeping?

Carlos, I believe that you are a special person that God has called to live a life that few of us would be willing to do. You have an ability in your freedom from most earthly possessions to be free to go and do. This lifestyle has left you with less in disposable income than most that post here.

I believe that God will provide you with music that will bless you and keep your Spirit up and refreshed. I am going to be straightforward with you and say that instead of bemoaning the fact that Christian music costs a few dollars, either to purchase a CD or to download it online, that you instead ask God to bless you with the avenue to have this available to you. Either blessing you with some extra dough to buy the music outright or have it brought to you by other means. Our God is big enough to do this for you Carlos.

There are free avenues available. I know San Diego is not in the bible belt like I am here in Dallas, but I have four different FM stations that I listen to that play different types of music. I am sure there are some free online Christian radio stations where you can here some good stuff. If nothing else, go to You Tube and search by your favorite group and not only hear it but watch it being performed live. I love the Hillsongs group from Australia. I go to You Tube and search Hillsongs and not only hear it, but get to witness a great worship service and it is totally free.

As far as Christian Counselors go, I know many many churches that have counseling available at no cost as well. I do know some that are licensed counselors that operate within the state systems that are at the same time Christian and do charge a fee similar to someone going to see a psychologist. I have no problem with that, if that is their profession. But you have great churches there in San Diego and I know that there is free spirit filled Christian counseling as well.

But asking for these people to do it all for free is like you running your window cleaning business for free or doing computer work for free or writing an article for free. How are you going to earn a living? The new testament believers earned a living as well. In the temple in the old testament, there were ministers and worshippers that were paid, at least they had their livelihoods met by their work in the religious field and did not earn a living outside it.

There are professions that are Christian, but they are professions and are worthy of their hire. Your initial example of the surgeon is beautiful when seeing the surgeon as God, but no earthly surgeon would train anyone for free. Medical school costs BIG bucks.

Carlos, I am praying for you and will ask you to join with me in faith that God will bless you with CDs or an Ipod full of Christian music that will bless you. Is that a deal?
Now THIS is a wonderful, wonderful post. And I wanted to quote it, despite its lengthiness because I thought it deserved more attention, for those of you who might have missed it since it was posted so early in this thread. These are words from someone who obviously has a great deal of logic, sense, and as well quite a bit of diplomacy! Much more than I would have had, to be honest!

But here's my two cents- what it all boils down to is we all need to take care to GIVE- as well we can. And, even more importantly, remember to appreciate what we HAVE, and the things that are good and plentiful in our lives rather than want for what we do NOT have. It really doesn't matter if we think we "should" have this or that, or whether we "deserve" anything at all. If we can sit back and appreciate, and be happy and grateful for what we DO have in our lives, than we have a chance at being happy. And as well, if we don't think about what we want to "get" and rather GIVE instead, whenever and wherever we can- oddly, the world has a way of returning the favor. I dare any of you to give something of yourselves- anything, be it just a kind word to a friend, or $2 to the salvation army, or some random act of kindness- whatever- do things like this consistently, as a habit. The littlest gestures can mean a lot, and you'll find it doesn't even take much effort to make another person feel special. And keep it up- you'll hopefully forget about whatever it is you thought you wanted or needed because you'll be getting so much more back in return, mark my words.
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Old 12-09-2009, 10:39 PM
 
2 posts, read 4,655 times
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This was an excellent post because it gave us the insight into the people we are talking about.

I'm concerned about mixing God and Industry. To me, Jesus turning over the tables spoke to me quite clearly. I can appreciate it may not resonate to musicians. I personally trust a Christian song made not for profit as to it's motive. Since the money motive has been taken away, the odds that song was inspired by God increases. It's just my own personal litmus test truth detector. I'm more moved by Artists making a sacrifice to God thru their music than those making money singing to God. But that's just my taste. It's an individual thing not to be imposed on others. No intention to insult anyone.
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Old 03-11-2010, 01:04 PM
 
4 posts, read 7,194 times
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I'm in agreement with you all in that we should not have to charge if the saints would support the ministries they pull from. We shouldn't have to ask it should be a given. Again I say the word of God does not cost,but the equipment, peoples time, abilities,venues,food, clothing, electricity, studio time, marketing, paperwork, ink, all do cost. Now if a person is not willing to share in that, then the alternative is to just not seek after those ministries who do all those things. That would put you back in first century church where we meet at each others house with a acoustic guitar. Lets hope you don't need sheet music. If we would just go and minister because we have been called to and the saints supported that which pours out the word of God this would not be an issue.
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Old 03-11-2010, 01:25 PM
 
4 posts, read 7,194 times
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What some of you are supposing is that ministers should suffer working at Mcdonalds, starbucks and the like to minister to others and those receiving should keep their money and get fat on the word. Ministers of music give all while recipients give nothing? Jesus never required from those He ministered to because he had support from those around Him. How many of you are sowing into a Christian musician so they can do free concerts, pray, and go to the studio to record the songs that uplift your spirit?
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Old 03-11-2010, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Nashville, TN
2,031 posts, read 2,668,545 times
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Pretty simple actually. They are human and need money to survive just like everyone else. They obviously are gifted and just because they went into Christian music versus Country, etc.. they can't make money? That doesn't seem right.
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Old 03-12-2010, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Living in the San Diego area
1,040 posts, read 1,838,660 times
Reputation: 228
For the sake of completeness I wanted to post a link to a very enlightening article I just read about a Church whose worship arm is well known for it's worship music.

I still get people PM'ing me here about this thread and while I won't participate in it again, since everything that I could say has been said, I thought it important to give people reading this thread some insight into what is behind the scenes of one of the biggest Christian music successes in modern times.

It's not pretty folks. And certainly not Christ-like overall.

It smacks of things being mostly if not entirely being about...yup...money.

The greed for money. The love of money. The root of a great deal of evil.

I am not saying that there are not some wonderful Christians associated with the church behind this worship music. There undoubtedly are. Only that there is something very rotten in the modern, organized church and in the modern day Christian music industry.

I do not agree with everything mentioned in the article linked to below as being un-Christlike. There is room within a healthy church operating as it should to disassociate itself from those who chose to live in sin. Something the article implies as being unloving...which is completely wrong. It can be the most loving thing to disassociate from those who need to repent. It often drives them to repent or if not it helps protect others from going down the same path into sin.

But overall this article points to the rottenness of greed and materialism that has made inroads into the heart of the Church.

It's well worth reading.

Here it is...

Hillsong Church Greed Shallow Anti christ brian houston « Hillsong Church

Having said the above I will unsubscribe from this thread and disappear again or at least go back to just blogging here and little else.

Carlos
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Florida
579 posts, read 627,850 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
I have something on my heart that I would like to express so I thought I would express it in a second thread here .

I am tired of getting cut down and beaten up by unbelievers and God haters so for a while...I might hang out here. Among you...my fellow believers. Maybe not. We'll see.

It may not last long because I don't want to hide out here indefinitely when there is so much work to be done out in the world (in our case in other forums and elsewhere on the Internet)...where the unbelievers are. But for now...I am tired and need a break from the relentless put downs elsewhere.

So here are my thoughts for tonight for what they are worth. If anyone would like to comment I'd be appreciative of your input.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been trying to listen to some great worship music tonight over the Internet but...much of it is unavailable without buying it. Why? Because someone, either the artist or label company wants to make money from it.

Normally there is nothing wrong with an artist making money from his work but we, as Christians are called to nothing less than the standard set by the death of Christ and what He did for us.

Here is an analogy that will hopefully highlight what I want to say.

I (not the real me but a make believe me for the purposes of this analogy) am a top surgeon. The best. I can do things that are nearly miraculous to save people's lives under my skilled surgeon's hands.

I teach you to be a great surgeon. For free. I take time and effort with you. I pay for your education. I give you money to live on while you go to medical school. I am there for your graduation. I am there when you need advice on how to be a better surgeon. And I am there when you are wrongly sued for malpractice. I charge you nothing. I love you and want to help you and make myself available to you. Charging you nothing. I inspire you.

If it wasn't for me...you would have never been able to become a surgeon.

Someone comes to you and says they need to learn how to operate on their wife who is dying in a third world country.

You say you will help them but that you will charge them $16 to do it. They say they have no money. You say no dice. You will not help them unless they pay you.

Their wife dies. And you don't care.

How heartless you say?

What do Christian musicians and labels do?

Jesus Christ shed His precious blood to die for their sins. He inspires them. His Spirit moves them to produce wonderful Christian worship songs. He is there for them when they are down and when they need encouragement to write their next song. He lifts them up and gives them grace to do what they do. They would not be able to write one song or do one thing to be a great singer without Him.

Someone comes along who is so poor that they cannot afford a musicians songs. Hearing their songs might help save their faith. They might desperately need to receive God's grace through the songs that God inspires in the musicians but they can't pay the $16 dollars it costs to get the CD.

They might live in a third world country. But they can't download or hear the song over the Internet because it's copyrighted and illegal to post it and download it.

But they are a part of His Church!

The main surgeon is Jesus. The musicians are the trained surgeon. And the person needing what the trained surgeon can give are the people of God - many of whom can't afford to pay.

And what do musicians and labels do?

They charge $16 per CD to make their music available or else no dice.

Jesus Christ shed His blood and inspires them. Freely He gave and what do the musicians and labels do? They give away nothing unless they are paid their $16 per CD.

Something doesn't seem right about that.

When contrasted with the free gift of eternal life...the FREE gift of eternal life, which is worth more than all the music put out by all music labels anywhere...to charge ANYTHING to a fellow Christian for something that the Lord gifts or inspires in us freely...is nothing less than a disgrace and miserly.

Thoughts?

Carlos

PS. Not all Christian musicians and labels are as bad as any other but when contrasted with Christ's command to freely give as we have been freely given to...they are all not doing what Christ did and would have us do. Give and give and give to love our brethren and win the world to Christ. Without expecting anything in return.

PSS. The same principal can be applied to Christian Counseling or anything else that Christians charge for but which Christ has given them abundantly of...for free. I don't know how many times I have been told that so and so, who really needs help, can't get it because they can't afford Christian counseling. I heard that last night from someone.

I didn't see any scripture in the posts, sorry if I missed any.

1Timothy 6: 3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. 6But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

John 2: 12After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.
13When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!" 17His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."
This happens continually, selling CD's in church, magazines,tax services for christians, etc. Even feeding the homeless, the food bought by the church for the homeless is taken by the very people who go to church saying they are serving freely.
I am not being sarcastic or directing this as personal, but as one has heard many times,
"Everyone does it". Jesus....Many are invited, few are chosen.
Praise God for discernment of this wonderful Post and God Bless you Carlos.
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Old 01-11-2013, 05:43 PM
 
3,892 posts, read 9,322,817 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by {Ukiaon} View Post

Nobody really buys CD's like that anymore, distributing your music digitally is way cheaper and easier. I know a guy who makes his songs free, but he's an up and coming secular artist. For right now, he just uses other established well known artist's instrumentals and remixes their lyrics to sing it in his own way, but he does in fact go in the studio to lay down perfect vocals and makes the MP3's available for free through zshare for ppl to upload on their comps, ipod's or anywhere else. Heres an example of the calibur of music that can be made availble to the public for free on your own dime:zSHARE - 14 - HI Sun _J-DaVeY Cover_.mp3

Oh, and lets not forget to copyright copyright copyright to prevent stealing!!! We can also do this ourselves by submitting the forms and small fee to the U.S Copyright office in Washington D.C!!!!!
The practice you describe in the first paragraph is stealing. This artist has no right to the music he is using. Surely you're not endorsing theft in His name?

The last paragraph is naive at best. If copyrighting was all that was necessary to prevent "piracy", it wouldn't be much of a problem, now would it? Besides, the Copyright Law of 1978 states your work is automatically copyrighted. What you describe is simply protecting or registering the copyright.
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