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I have something on my heart that I would like to express so I thought I would express it in a second thread here .
I am tired of getting cut down and beaten up by unbelievers and God haters so for a while...I might hang out here. Among you...my fellow believers. Maybe not. We'll see.
It may not last long because I don't want to hide out here indefinitely when there is so much work to be done out in the world (in our case in other forums and elsewhere on the Internet)...where the unbelievers are. But for now...I am tired and need a break from the relentless put downs elsewhere.
So here are my thoughts for tonight for what they are worth. If anyone would like to comment I'd be appreciative of your input.
I've been trying to listen to some great worship music tonight over the Internet but...much of it is unavailable without buying it. Why? Because someone, either the artist or label company wants to make money from it.
Normally there is nothing wrong with an artist making money from his work but we, as Christians are called to nothing less than the standard set by the death of Christ and what He did for us.
Here is an analogy that will hopefully highlight what I want to say.
I (not the real me but a make believe me for the purposes of this analogy) am a top surgeon. The best. I can do things that are nearly miraculous to save people's lives under my skilled surgeon's hands.
I teach you to be a great surgeon. For free. I take time and effort with you. I pay for your education. I give you money to live on while you go to medical school. I am there for your graduation. I am there when you need advice on how to be a better surgeon. And I am there when you are wrongly sued for malpractice. I charge you nothing. I love you and want to help you and make myself available to you. Charging you nothing. I inspire you.
If it wasn't for me...you would have never been able to become a surgeon.
Someone comes to you and says they need to learn how to operate on their wife who is dying in a third world country.
You say you will help them but that you will charge them $16 to do it. They say they have no money. You say no dice. You will not help them unless they pay you.
Their wife dies. And you don't care.
How heartless you say?
What do Christian musicians and labels do?
Jesus Christ shed His precious blood to die for their sins. He inspires them. His Spirit moves them to produce wonderful Christian worship songs. He is there for them when they are down and when they need encouragement to write their next song. He lifts them up and gives them grace to do what they do. They would not be able to write one song or do one thing to be a great singer without Him.
Someone comes along who is so poor that they cannot afford a musicians songs. Hearing their songs might help save their faith. They might desperately need to receive God's grace through the songs that God inspires in the musicians but they can't pay the $16 dollars it costs to get the CD.
They might live in a third world country. But they can't download or hear the song over the Internet because it's copyrighted and illegal to post it and download it.
But they are a part of His Church!
The main surgeon is Jesus. The musicians are the trained surgeon. And the person needing what the trained surgeon can give are the people of God - many of whom can't afford to pay.
And what do musicians and labels do?
They charge $16 per CD to make their music available or else no dice.
Jesus Christ shed His blood and inspires them. Freely He gave and what do the musicians and labels do? They give away nothing unless they are paid their $16 per CD.
Something doesn't seem right about that.
When contrasted with the free gift of eternal life...the FREE gift of eternal life, which is worth more than all the music put out by all music labels anywhere...to charge ANYTHING to a fellow Christian for something that the Lord gifts or inspires in us freely...is nothing less than a disgrace and miserly.
Thoughts?
Carlos
PS. Not all Christian musicians and labels are as bad as any other but when contrasted with Christ's command to freely give as we have been freely given to...they are all not doing what Christ did and would have us do. Give and give and give to love our brethren and win the world to Christ. Without expecting anything in return.
PSS. The same principal can be applied to Christian Counseling or anything else that Christians charge for but which Christ has given them abundantly of...for free. I don't know how many times I have been told that so and so, who really needs help, can't get it because they can't afford Christian counseling. I heard that last night from someone.
As far as I know Jesus is the only person who turned water into wine. As such people need to make a living. In order to do there needs to be money. These are rules we are bound by.. If you have extra give it.. its called the music business.. not the music charity.
I'm a songwriter and a Christian. Your idea of free music is great in theory, but how would it work?
If music is all free, there will be very, very little of it.
Cut off the revenue stream as you suggest, and here's what won't get paid-
The label. No more promotion and distribution.
The producer. Who will produce the tracks?
The studio. We all better have great garage set-ups!
The artist. Only independently wealthy artists from now on.
The writer. I'd have to get another job to support my music hobby.
The publisher, the A&R guys, agent, managers, art dept.s, etc. No more touring, either.
You see the problem? It's bad enough I have thieves online stealing my music
Thanks for the candid and respectful replies. I really appreciate that. It is so refreshing to not be put down because I happen to believe in Christ or think this or that.
I may be wrong in some of my thinking but that's what these forums can help me realize. Or if not wrong at least we can all learn as we discuss things in a spirit of loving acceptance.
And certainly...I don't have all the answers.
akm4...I appreciate what you are saying and you are the perfect person to discuss this with.
Please don't take anything I say personally or think that I think that all Christian musicians are just so many selfish persons. I don't think that.
But I do believe that in general Chrsitian musicians are not following in the footsteps of Jesus in charging for their songs. Just as Christian churches today are full of traditions and practices that don't line up with how things should be.
Anyway...
Let's start from a base that we can perhaps agree upon.
Christian musicians, Christian counselors, and other who might presently charge for their services...it seems to me that none of that is any good or does any real good unless the person doing it is gifted to do what they are charging for.
Musicians can come up with songs. Even Christian songs. Unbelieving musicians can do that. Write up some lyrics with Christian thoughts and voila...a "Christian" song.
But such songs are not anointed and do not bring life, His life, to the persons listening. They are flat. Spiritually devoid.
If a Christian musician has a gift for that and if his heart is in tune with God when he writes a song, expressing something of his relationship with Christ through that song when he writes and puts it to music...it can be the most wonderful thing. A holy...anointed song. To lift up the hearts of believers everywhere.
So...first off...let's assume we have a true Christian writing Christian songs as an expression of his gifting and of his relationship to Christ.
Is there any Scriptural grounds for justifying that Christian songwriter charging for his song?
More fundamentally is there any Scriptural justification for any Christian to use or make available his gifting to the Body only upon condition that he/she receive money for it?
I daresay...none at all.
In fact when Peter was laying hands on people to receive the Holy Spirit he told the man (I don't remember his name just now) who wanted to buy his gift so that he could lay hands on people himself...to get right with God for he was in the throes of bitterness and in the bondage of sin for thinking that God's gracious and FREE gift (the Holy Spirit) could be purchased with money.
So...the precedent if you will against God giving us things freely and us turning around and charging to help others derive benefit from our gifting or to receive God's gift is...well...firmly established Biblically I think.
More fundamentally...the goal in life is not or should not be to make money from our gifting. The goal is to exercise whatever gift we have for the edification of others and to look to God to provide through whatever means He chooses to provide for us through. Without our expecting anything from others around us but giving freely as Jesus gave His life for us.
Yes...that would mean less Christian musicians would make money or even that there would be less Christian songs but may I suggest that the one's who would remain are those who MUST exercise their gift because whether paid or not...it is their gift. And all of us cannot find our truest and highest calling in life before God unless we exercise our gifts for the edification of others.
It is a matter for such musicians, as it is for all of us of giving up our lives in service to Him (which is expressed in service to others since we cannot love God who we do not see if we do not love those we do see).
Freely we have been given...freely we must give. If we are to reflect the heart of God.
Your further thoughts on this? Please forgive any spelling or grammatical errors but I am somewhat rushed for time this morning.
Carlos
PS. It might be helpful to realize a bit of where I am coming from with all this. I am just so sick and tired of all the stuff that passes for Christianity these days. All the Christian tradition and practice in our modern North American way of doing things which is so foreign to the way New Testament Christians under the direction of the Holy Spirit did things. It's time we took a step back, looked around, and went back to the way things were and that God meant for us to do in the New Testament.
Location: Everybody is going to hurt you, you just gotta find the ones worth suffering for-B Marley
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Are you kidding? God gives everyone gifts (talents) and if you use it for good--to make a living, minister to others, both, etc., there's nothing wrong with that. God blesses us with these things b'c he wants us to be prosperous in all things, not just some. Besides, who do you want the money to go to after the producers pay to produce it and get it on the market? It costs money to produce and that brings in profits. There's nothing wrong with earning money through the gifts God bestows us. It's a good, honest living. Since when do Christians deserve a free-ride, that is, getting anything and everything Christian related for free? Someone has to pay to get it to the public.
....Since when do Christians deserve a free-ride, that is, getting anything and everything Christian related for free? Someone has to pay to get it to the public.
None of us deserve a free ride. You are absolutely correct about that!
But you know something? Someone did pay a great deal to enable us to be forgiven. That someone was Jesus, the only begotten Son of God, who hung on a cross and suffered in our place for our sins.
And He is the one who enables us to have any truly valuable gift at all through His Spirit. Our lives are not our own but His!
Would Jesus have us then use His gifts operating in us who have been so greatly forgiven by Him in such a way that only those able and willing to pay some filthy mammon of unrighteousness (otherwise known as money) can benefit from HIS gift?? Of music, counseling, or whatever??
Like I said...are you kidding?
Do you want to live for God and serve Him with all that you are and all that you hope to be or are you more interested in using HIS gifts operating in you for personal gain?
The love of money is the root of all sorts of evil the Bible says. Maybe we need to stop and think about that for a while.
Just to clarify where you are going with this Carlos . . . What do you do to make a living? Are you paid for it? If so, why do you charge? Your abilities are a gift from God . . . why do you charge for using them?
I have something on my heart that I would like to express so I thought I would express it in a second thread here .
I am tired of getting cut down and beaten up by unbelievers and God haters so for a while...I might hang out here. Among you...my fellow believers. Maybe not. We'll see.
It may not last long because I don't want to hide out here indefinitely when there is so much work to be done out in the world (in our case in other forums and elsewhere on the Internet)...where the unbelievers are. But for now...I am tired and need a break from the relentless put downs elsewhere.
So here are my thoughts for tonight for what they are worth. If anyone would like to comment I'd be appreciative of your input.
I've been trying to listen to some great worship music tonight over the Internet but...much of it is unavailable without buying it. Why? Because someone, either the artist or label company wants to make money from it.
Normally there is nothing wrong with an artist making money from his work but we, as Christians are called to nothing less than the standard set by the death of Christ and what He did for us.
Here is an analogy that will hopefully highlight what I want to say.
I (not the real me but a make believe me for the purposes of this analogy) am a top surgeon. The best. I can do things that are nearly miraculous to save people's lives under my skilled surgeon's hands.
I teach you to be a great surgeon. For free. I take time and effort with you. I pay for your education. I give you money to live on while you go to medical school. I am there for your graduation. I am there when you need advice on how to be a better surgeon. And I am there when you are wrongly sued for malpractice. I charge you nothing. I love you and want to help you and make myself available to you. Charging you nothing. I inspire you.
If it wasn't for me...you would have never been able to become a surgeon.
Someone comes to you and says they need to learn how to operate on their wife who is dying in a third world country.
You say you will help them but that you will charge them $16 to do it. They say they have no money. You say no dice. You will not help them unless they pay you.
Their wife dies. And you don't care.
How heartless you say?
What do Christian musicians and labels do?
Jesus Christ shed His precious blood to die for their sins. He inspires them. His Spirit moves them to produce wonderful Christian worship songs. He is there for them when they are down and when they need encouragement to write their next song. He lifts them up and gives them grace to do what they do. They would not be able to write one song or do one thing to be a great singer without Him.
Someone comes along who is so poor that they cannot afford a musicians songs. Hearing their songs might help save their faith. They might desperately need to receive God's grace through the songs that God inspires in the musicians but they can't pay the $16 dollars it costs to get the CD.
They might live in a third world country. But they can't download or hear the song over the Internet because it's copyrighted and illegal to post it and download it.
But they are a part of His Church!
The main surgeon is Jesus. The musicians are the trained surgeon. And the person needing what the trained surgeon can give are the people of God - many of whom can't afford to pay.
And what do musicians and labels do?
They charge $16 per CD to make their music available or else no dice.
Jesus Christ shed His blood and inspires them. Freely He gave and what do the musicians and labels do? They give away nothing unless they are paid their $16 per CD.
Something doesn't seem right about that.
When contrasted with the free gift of eternal life...the FREE gift of eternal life, which is worth more than all the music put out by all music labels anywhere...to charge ANYTHING to a fellow Christian for something that the Lord gifts or inspires in us freely...is nothing less than a disgrace and miserly.
Thoughts?
Carlos
PS. Not all Christian musicians and labels are as bad as any other but when contrasted with Christ's command to freely give as we have been freely given to...they are all not doing what Christ did and would have us do. Give and give and give to love our brethren and win the world to Christ. Without expecting anything in return.
PSS. The same principal can be applied to Christian Counseling or anything else that Christians charge for but which Christ has given them abundantly of...for free. I don't know how many times I have been told that so and so, who really needs help, can't get it because they can't afford Christian counseling. I heard that last night from someone.
Hey Carlos!!
Hang in there brother, because what a great reward do we have in the new
heaven and earth and all. "Can you imagine it, DUDE"
Carlos you have a heart for God and a man after God's own heart sort of like David, Joseph and all of the crew that's blazed the trails for us;
But besides having to finance what it takes to write, produce ,record, etc.
Hmmmmm, Royalties...there has to be some kind of profit.....
The reason we feel this way is because we are living right in a world system that's contrary to God's Kingdom (anti-christ)
I question this myself, I as a musician, writer and psalmist have been given a gift, but I personally would not do these things that you mentioned.
GREEDY" may be the word that you are searching for
I mean after doing the math ...
everyone that produces this massive Christian/Gospel/Inspirational music are not after God's own heart, so... my thoughts on it"
God Bless you
you are not alone in this, "this will come to an end soon" YIPEE
Love Ya!!
Yours in Christ Jesus Our Lord and Savior
Just to clarify where you are going with this Carlos . . . What do you do to make a living? Are you paid for it? If so, why do you charge? Your abilities are a gift from God . . . why do you charge for using them?
At present I am under employed in San Diego having just moved here a few weeks ago. I have done some window cleaning, computer tutoring, and even wrote a news story that got published in a local paper to make ends meet.
Yes...I was paid for all of that.
Why do I charge?
Because it is a godly thing to be a good example and work for the food I eat (as well as pay rent, give to others, and so forth).
In one sense...yes, my abilities are a gift from God but not in the sense of being like spiritual gifts. Whether I am a Christian or not, my abilities to analyze computer problems and arrive at a solution, do window cleaning, and even write a 250 word or less news story about something I see...remain.
In other words I would have these abilities whether or not I was a Christian. They are natural abilities. Not divinely given for the edification of the Church or to win the lost (as a gifted Evangelist might have).
We are to be like Jesus as a Body. To do what He did and to be what He was.
Show me one instance of Jesus Christ charging for people to get a healing, hear a sermon, or even to turn water into wine. There isn't any.
Show me one instance of Paul, Peter, James or any of the others using a gift, any spiritual gift, to make money. There isn't any.
Freely they received. Freely they gave.
To equate natural gifts with spiritual gifts and then make the case that we should be able to charge for the exercise of our spiritual gifts because...well...because we are paid for the exercise of our natural abilities is a cop out.
It's like saying that because criminals are not forgiven in a natural sense before man's law that God should not forgive us.
Or that none of us should work and earn a living because Jesus's work on the cross was given to those who truly believe...freely, at no charge with them not having to work for it.
You are missing the thrust of what Jesus did, how he lived, and what he taught his disciples to do.
Jesus Christ gave of Himself freely and without reservation to all who needed Him in life. And in death He made provision through the shedding of His blood for the forgiveness of all our sins. His most precious blood is more precious and of greater value than all the gifts (spiritual and otherwise) that all of us possess combined!
If He gave the most precious gift of His blood to the world...freely without expectation of return...we should go and do likewise.
Anything less is not in line with the generosity, mercy, and graciousness of God.
There is a malaise sweeping the North American Church. As I see it...that malaise is an unwillingness to give up our lives in service to God and to one another.
If our aim is to save our lives, pursue the American dream, and enjoy a good life for ourselves...we are not walking as Jesus did. Indeed if that is the thrust of our lives...we are most likely not even Christians.
If we are willing to loose our lives in service to Him and others...then we are indeed walking in line with what Jesus would have us do.
The real question is not whether it is okay to make money from music or not. Though certainly that is a valid question which I feel I have addressed adequately in my posts.
But more fundamentally the question is...are we willing to loose our lives? To exercise our gifts, whatever they may be, for the edification of the Church and the winning of the lost?
In the same spirit that Jesus and the New Testament Christians modeled for us?
I am not talking about losing our lives only to pick them up again after God gets done "testing" our hearts through what seems like a loss of doing what we so much might want to do with our lives...look out for numero uno.
I am talking about real loss. A real loss of all that we value and consider precious to our natural selves.
Jesus suffered that loss. So did Paul.
Quote:
...I count all things a loss compared to the excellency of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, and may be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of sharing in His sufferings, ...
If we are not willing to suffer the loss of all that we consider dear to ourselves in this life in order to follow in the footsteps of Jesus...we do not know Him.
You cannot serve both God and money. You cannot orient your life around the interests of God and the interests of money. Yes...we are to make money so as to live and even have something left over to give to those in need but...we are not to focus on making money as the aim of our lives. Our aim is to serve God and to love others.
With respect to spiritual gifts...those gifts are given for the edification of the Church and the winning of the lost.
We are not to hinder the free operation of those gifts by only exercising them for those who might be able to afford paying us to receive their benefit. There are many, many Christians in the world at large who cannot afford even a CD. We don't even make our music available to them at no charge...never mind making it available to everyone else!
Operating in a spiritual gift on the basis of whether we can charge enough to make a living from it's operation...is an affront to the God who gave us the gift freely and who intended us to operate freely in it for the good of others! Whether they pay us anything for it's operation or not!
The Church needs to repent from so much incredible foolishness going on within it's hallowed halls of religiosity. The North American Church as a whole is a disgrace to the name of Jesus. We need to repent from hearts that are more interested in what is in it for us than in how we can use our gifts freely to pursue what God would have us do with them.
Carlos
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I'm with you Carlos!!
my thoughts on it"
