What will you do when Chrisitianity is outlawed?

[mshipmate]

Originally Posted by Jaymax

Firstly, homosexuality isn't an "act" it's an orientation.

Secondly, the Bible wasn't written in English, so all you are reading is someone's interpretation of what they think a word or a phrase meant in the original Koine Greek or Hebrew. There are plenty of translation errors in the Bible, and that verse in Corinthians is just one example. Paul used a word "arsenokoitai" that has only been translated as "homosexual" since about 1948 when it became "popular" to condemn homosexuals. So what were you saying about being "objective"?

Thirdly, the Bible does not condemn homosexuality as a whole. It condemns certain types of behaviour like homosexual rape, ritual sex in temples, temple prostitution, pederasty etc, in the same way that it condemns certain types of heterosexual behaviour like prostitution but does not condemn heterosexuality as a whole. See the difference?

Paul used a word "arsenokoitai" that has only been translated as "homosexual" since about 1948 when it became "popular" to condemn homosexuals.

WHAT DID PAUL MEAN BY "UNSEEMLY?"

"...likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working *that which is unseemly..."

*unseemly #808. aschemosune as-kay-mos-oo'-nay from 809; an indecency; by implication, the *pudenda:--shame, that which is unseemly.

*pudenda The American Heritage College Dictionary: pudendum/ pl. pudenda n. "The human external genital organs, especially of a woman" (p. 1127).


1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


Rom. 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

9 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (sodomy)
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators [Gk: paramours], nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate *[Gk: catamites], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [Gk: sodomites] nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (I Cor. 6:9-10).


*–catamite=a boy or youth who is in a sexual relationship with a man.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by bluepacific

For everyone else here. There's been a huge increase in people coming here recently with a direct Red-Phone Hot-Line to God. You're all going to have to judge for yourself in the end, but the God of the Bible does not communicate directly with mankind this way. This is why the Bible was written. If these people are indeed correct and the Bible is something worthless, then your only hope is to believe that ALL understanding and truth come through them and their channeling of the spirit realm for answers.

The extreme characterizations you are using do neither your beliefs nor theirs justice, bluepacific. The following is my witness and my opinion only.You are correct that God does not communicate directly in this manner (meaning direct.audible SPEECH) . . . our inner senses that directly connect are non-verbal and do not use any of our actual sensory system. I do not recall encountering any here who have said the bible is worthless. Those who do are false witnesses . . . and any here who say that simple literal reading by the masses in ignorance is sufficient to understand its truths are false witnesses also.The spiritual import of bible truths cannot be understood through mere carnal reading. At the very least . . . we must use our understanding of Jesus' spirit of love and acceptance to filter the" letter" of the words and obtain the "spirit" of them. If you cannot imagine the Jesus (whose clear example is so unmistakable unto death) saying or doing or meaning it . . . it is probably distortion of the truth.Anyone here who claims "ALL understanding and truth come through them and their channeling of the spirit realm for answers" is bearing false witness. I do not recall anyone here doing that either, bluepacific. Be careful how you characterize other witness lest you bear false witness yourself.

This "New Age" philosophical mindset of multiple pathways which has infiltrated present day thinking is a lie and has been proven a lie over and over again throughout history. Mankind will never be united with millions of separate sovereign constitutions, Religious philosophies, or anything else. Jesus preached that God's Kingdom with he as it's King was mankind's only hope. Please pursue that statement and find out exactly what that Kingdom is.

Jesus is the only Way to spiritual connection with God and the kingdom you refer to is a spiritual one . . . not carnal . . . that mess belongs to "Caesar." But where you go astray IMO, bluepacific is in thinking that your path to Jesus is the only Way to God. Jesus is now Holy Spirit since the crucifixion and rebirth (resurrection) and is available to ALL in our consciousness. Whether we respond or not to his spirit in our consciousness is up to each one of us. Only Jesus knows who has or has not accepted his inner spirit . . . any external professing of beliefs or worship is for OUR benefit and the benefit of others. It is largely irrelevant . . . except as witness to aid others in recognizing the truth of God's easy availibility within us. Jesus and God have no need of it . . . they know what is truly in your heart (soul).

[Bluefly]

bluepacific -

Your response saddens me. You, like so many of your ilk, can do nothing but attack and disparage a spiritual path that is not your own.

I am honestly on the verge of tears after reading your tiraid against me. I don't understand why so much hate and fear of something different reside at the heart of so many who call themselves Christian.

All I will say is this:

I never said any should believe I speak the truth. That would contradict all I have learned. What I have found are the answers to build a peaceful and healthy world. The whole point is that the truth lies within each individual. I accessed the truth as it could be interpreted through me. I can stand as a testament that the wisdom at the heart of religion and quantum physics lies within each person but must be pursued by each in his or her own way.

I also never said the Bible is worthless. It, actually, has wisdom and insights in plain sight that very, very few recognize because only a few have transcended to that higher realm. You say the Bible tells people to not trust their inner self or gut instinct because it will always lead to disappointment.

Do you ever consider that that was written into the Bible to control people because they knew that if people tapped into their inner selves and realized they don't need a book or a church to guide them, that religion as it is constructed would collapse?
Be aware of blind faith of any kind and of judging others' journey which you do not begin to understand.

In my own life, learning how to tap deeply into that inner self has - almost like magic - manifested the opportunities and wonderful people in my life to realized my greatest potential. It's been far from a disappointment. I have broken down in tears of joy at experiencing the profound unity and power that exists within this reality. I have lost all desire to defy the 10 Commandments. Not because they are rules I fear, but because I have elevated my consciousness to a level at which I have no need for such vices and dishonesties.

That's what religion doesn't want you to know. That you don't need them.

I wish all Christians could be like MysticPhD. I don't necessarily walk your path, Mystic, but thank you for your thoughtful posts.

[RobinD69]

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

Wow - the irony burns.

My hatred for the truth? Hmmm. Let me see. I posted that it was clear to me that Paul taught against judging and then you ask me if "we" judge if "we" share god's word.

But you took it all out of context.

Firstly, the post was not addressed to you and was a polite rebuttal to Carlos on his claim that "we" are to judge righteously. I post all the scrips where Paul talks of judge and it turns out that my opinion is supported.

It doesnt matter, this is a public forum and if you are going to lie to support your opinion I am going to call you on it. Remember context is important to get to the truth.

You ask me a totally unrelated question but it is relating to gays whom you HATE and choose to judge. If you cannot follow your own post and opinions then I feel sorry for you.

You see there you go again judging me while proclaiming we should not judge, this is very hypocritical of you. I have never said I hate anyone, but you insist claiming this for me.

Well you have just judged again so I rest my case. BTW I do not need your prayers but TY for the false humility.

You are quick to point finger but slow to realize your own hypocricy.

And no you do NOT love your neighbor when you choose to judge.
I am? Really? Oh wise wun, pleeze show me the error of mah ways.

Go back and read the context of your quotes from the Bible and you just might see the error of your ways if you are trully seeking the truth.

Again you assume I do not know what I am taking of. Yes I am sarcastic with you as IMO that is all your posts deserve.

You have a hang up because I believe if full reconciliation and you do not. So while you attack me, I will reciprocate in "kind"

So where is the love you proclaim so much while accusing, judging others of hatred?

You do realize that just saying means nada to me or anyone else for that matter. If you are willing to do just what you have done you will realize why I call folk like you out.

So teach uz O wize wun.

Your serve.

I am not just saying, I challenge you to examine the context of your quotes and still stand behind your opinions, because if you do then you will be making yourself a hypocrit.

[carlos123]

Originally Posted by Bluefly

Your response saddens me. You, like so many of your ilk, can do nothing but attack and disparage a spiritual path that is not your own.

Bluefly...he and others of his ilk (like me) do not attack. We proclaim the truth in order to counter falsehood - which seems to be so incredibly prevalent on this forum by the way.

You seem to attach yourself to what you call truth, which is a actually a false system of belief, so tightly that if anyone of our ilk or otherwise questions your view of truth or otherwise undermines it with real truth...you take it personally.

I have not taken things personally despite all the insults, defamations of character, slanderous accusations, mockery and otherwise thrown at me for believing what I consider to be true about the Bible and Jesus Christ. I would encourage you to do likewise Bluefly.

Instead of taking things personally...look at what is said. Think about what is said with a view to seeing if their might not be some truth in it at all.

I am honestly on the verge of tears after reading your tiraid against me. I don't understand why so much hate and fear of something different reside at the heart of so many who call themselves Christian.

Your assumptions about the motives and perspectives of true Christians are way off Bluefly. You assume that our hearts are filled with hate. That is completely untrue. You assume that such so-called hate stems from fear of a belief system which is different from ours. That is likewise completely untrue.

Don't assume. Ask.

Am I filled with hatred? No! If you think otherwise please quote anything in any of my posts anywhere on city-data where I have expressed hatred and clearly so through what I have said. You won't find any.

Am I walking around wringing my hands in fear at the various anti-godly philosophies that are expounded upon here? No again! Rather I am astounded at the level of ignorance and deception here. And on a Christian forum to boot. I am not afraid of the falsehoods that are espoused here under the name of Christ. Not at all.

Where do you see fear in my words? Why do you believe that true Christians are filled with hate and fear?

I do not assume to know why you think Christians are so full of hate and fear so...I am asking why...if you care to elaborate on that.

Carlos

[ZugZub]

Originally Posted by RobinD69

Other faiths are unworthy and unrighteous. Christianity is the only true faith. Until a few years ago homosexuality was against the law and now their beliefs are being forced down our throats. Forty years ago abortion was against the law and not that is being forced down out throats. I am a bit militant so if you want to shut me up about the truth and the only truth religion wise is Christianity, then just try to shut me up or make laws against my faith and you will see just how much this Christian is capable of defending himself. I am a white, blond haired, blue eyed, redneck, gun toting Christian and my closest friend on theis site is a black man, so when you want to stereotype someone, get your head out of you rump.

Who is forcing you to become homosexual? Who is forcing you to have an abortion?

[ZugZub]

Originally Posted by Public_Newsense

Hopefully, I'll be strong enough to not back down. In the meantime, if your right to be a Christian isn't safe, your right to be an atheist won't be safe either. Nor will any of your other rights be safe. Which ones? You name it, it won't be safe. Not only that, but the sick, the elderly, the under-educated, the poor, those considered unattractive--to name a few--will be next in line. If they're allowed to silence Christians, they'll be allowed to silence anyone.

Sure it will, because atheism is not a religion.

[carlos123]

MysticPhD...I am going to split your post into smaller snippets and respond one point at a time, at least respecting those points I care to comment on.

So if I leave out a response to something you said, that you are avidly and eagerly waiting on ...I may yet respond in another follow up post.

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

....without extensive hermeneutic exegesis and eisegesis simple reading can produce serious misunderstanding . . . especially if it is just interpreted literally.

The basic faith in the love of Jesus and his presence with us in the holy spirit is really all you need to understand from the bible.

Any intensive study out of ignorance will do more harm than good.

You must read with a true understanding of the complete love and acceptance of Jesus in your heart to test what you are reading.

Creating concepts and ideas is severely limited by the information, culture, and emotional values of the author . . . and is further constrained by the intellectual status and similar problems in the receivers.

I don't support mindless ignorant faith, Carlos . . . and the author I cited is an eminent Christian scholar,

Bart D. Ehrman is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and served as Director of Graduate Studies and the Chair of the Department of Religious Studies. Professor Ehrman received both his Masters of Divinity and Ph.D. from Princeton Theological Seminary, where his 1985 doctoral dissertation was awarded magna *** laude.

I am a bit confused about what you believe MysticPhD.

On the one hand, as I have quoted you above, you say "The basic faith in the love of Jesus and his presence with us in the holy spirit is really all you need to understand from the bible.".

I don't agree with that statement by the way but leaving that disagreement aside for the moment, you say that basic faith in the love of Jesus and his presence is all that is needed to understand the bible.

Yet on the other hand you say "....without extensive hermeneutic exegesis and eisegesis simple reading can produce serious misunderstanding..." and "Creating concepts and ideas is severely limited by the information, culture, and emotional values of the author . . . and is further constrained by the intellectual status and similar problems in the receivers." and "I don't support mindless ignorant faith, Carlos . . . and the author I cited is an eminent Christian scholar". You then go on to list some of his various qualifications to support your contention that what he said is to be believed as truth.

Implying that we need more than the simple faith you previously said was enough such that someone without a higher degree of divine learning cannot possibly understand spiritual concepts, that you previously said were possible to understand with simple faith.

As I said I am confused by this contradiction in what you are saying. Can you reconcile these two for me or otherwise adhere to one and discard the other?

I am not asking from the standpoint of looking to you to teach me truth MysticPhD for in all frankness, I believe you are greatly deceived in your thinking. Rather I am asking for a clarification of what you said that I might more adequately speak to the deception I see for the benefit of all who might read our discussion.

Carlos

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by carlos123

I am a bit confused about what you believe MysticPhD.

Probably an understatement since you have not answered my question about fundamentalism yet.

On the one hand, as I have quoted you above, you say "The basic faith in the love of Jesus and his presence with us in the holy spirit is really all you need to understand from the bible.".

I don't agree with that statement by the way but leaving that disagreement aside for the moment, you say that basic faith in the love of Jesus and his presence is all that is needed to understand the bible.

Clearly you don't . . . because you are trying to use your mere human mind to read and understand an early spiritual training manual without educating yourself sufficiently about its origins, audience and content to do so. Those who do that are reading in ignorance and placing their faith in their mere human understanding instead of relying on Jesus who is directly available in your consciousness. If what you read does not seem compatible with the loving and accepting Jesus whose example was so unambiguous even unto death . . . THAT should be your guide in accepting or rejecting what you read . . . (in the absence of the more rigorous and difficult to acquire education.)

Yet on the other hand you say "....without extensive hermeneutic exegesis and eisegesis simple reading can produce serious misunderstanding..." and "Creating concepts and ideas is severely limited by the information, culture, and emotional values of the author . . . and is further constrained by the intellectual status and similar problems in the receivers." and "I don't support mindless ignorant faith, Carlos . . . and the author I cited is an eminent Christian scholar". You then go on to list some of his various qualifications to support your contention that what he said is to be believed as truth.

Implying that we need more than the simple faith you previously said was enough such that someone without a higher degree of divine learning cannot possibly understand spiritual concepts, that you previously said were possible to understand with simple faith.
As I said I am confused by this contradiction in what you are saying. Can you reconcile these two for me or otherwise adhere to one and discard the other?

I was implying nothing . . . I said it outright. If you intend to ascertain what SPIRITUAL truth is underlying what has been imperfectly recorded by men in the "letter" of the words . . . you need education and extensive knowledge of many things about the circumstances involving the creation of those recordings. If you wish to simply reinforce your faith in Jesus . . . you need only read with the example of Jesus clearly in your heart to filter out the chaff . . . since you are not performing an academic analysis. There is NO contradiction whatsoever, Carlos.

I am not asking from the standpoint of looking to you to teach me truth MysticPhD for in all frankness, I believe you are greatly deceived in your thinking. Rather I am asking for a clarification of what you said that I might more adequately speak to the deception I see for the benefit of all who might read our discussion.

Well that's good, Carrlos . . . since I'm not here to teach anyone . . . just witness to my understanding. I hope you are more qualified than your posts would indicate so far, Carlos . . . if it is your intent to teach by pointing out how I am deceived for the benefit of others. Remember, teachers have a heavier burden.

[june 7th]

Moderator cut:

Very done here.

Very done.