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Great big leap there, to assume that because people don't agree with your interpretation of what is truth according to your bible, that they are purposely teaching lies, don't you think?
As for those who don't back everything up with "God's word", maybe they've come to believe that the collection of books you call God's word, isn't. Which means they are not lying when they say what they believe to be truth. I don't care if you disagree with them, but it's disingenuous to go around saying people are being purposely deceptive because they disagree with you.
Conjecture and opinions ... that is all anyone has, even those that support them with quotes from a book they consider to be "God's word" (a SECOND HAND source, by the way). The bible being God's word is just your opinion and conjecture as well.
And rage? How do you determine that someone on a message board is upset or enraged just because they are sharing their opinion? The same way you determine that someone must be a liar because they have come to see things differently from you? Conjecture on your part.
And again, I ask --- What exactly is the danger that "apostates" pose to you? Can't your version of truth stand up to the challenge?
If you do not believe in Gods word the bible or that it is truth then I guess no one can ever call you an apostate can they. That would be applicable to ones who ARE bible students and believe it is inspired by God and its benefits as mentioned in 2 Tim 3:16.
Once again, please reread my earlier post and even the comment you referenced... just because someone disagrees with me or anyone does NOT mean they are an apostate. Not sure how much more clear I can be on that. The point however is anyone who says they believe in the bible and voluntarily teaches they KNOW is not bible based IS an apostate by the very words of the bible. Do you appreciate someone who voluntarily says false things about you? Why would you think God would want ones to spread lies with the intent of confusing and leading ones away from him? As servants we also do not want this to be so. But lets check out a few examples to see if you agree..
Someone is in charge of building a bridge, and although the blueprints gave them specific instructions they decided to not only reject those instructions but tell others on the project the incorrect instructions. In this situation who is liable for any damage, injury or death? Also, who would the City place much more blame on... the one in charge or those following his orders without knowledge of incorrect changes?
Another example, same man building the bridge has the blueprints but misunderstands the instructions. A City worker with years more knowledge and experience stops by and immediately corrects him and tells him the correct way to go about his project. However, this man decides to still do it his own way, is this man still not considered as bad as the first example since also chose to reject proper instruction?
We even know how important it is to try to make sure of things first since even if this man had misunderstandings and never got corrected nor meant to deliberately do wrong and damage, injury or death occurred he STILL is held accountable, maybe to a lesser degree than the previous examples but still accountable, make sense?
When you say conjecture and opinions is all we have, that is a true statement when talking about everyday life to a degree, however for ones who believe in the bible we don't have to guess since the words are clearly written for much of the bible. Now I give you there are parts of the bible less clear not yet revealed so some DO have personal interpretation and argue and I do NOT like that nor does God but for the parts that affect our beliefs, service, and do's and don'ts we don't have to guess.
I agree also that truth should always stand up to questioning, without knowing it you backed 2 Cor 13:5 to keep testing (or examining) we're in the faith. However, with that being said the bible is clear NOT to be deceived by false teachers, wolf in sheep's clothing or ones who prey on ones to deceive. While truth should hold up to false teachers/ teachings we do not voluntarily expose ourselves to such teachings for fear or being mislead.
If you do not believe in Gods word the bible or that it is truth then I guess no one can ever call you an apostate can they. That would be applicable to ones who ARE bible students and believe it is inspired by God and its benefits as mentioned in 2 Tim 3:16.
Once again, please reread my earlier post and even the comment you referenced... just because someone disagrees with me or anyone does NOT mean they are an apostate. Not sure how much more clear I can be on that.The point however is anyone who says they believe in the bible and voluntarily teaches they KNOW is not bible based IS an apostate by the very words of the bible. Do you appreciate someone who voluntarily says false things about you? Why would you think God would want ones to spread lies with the intent of confusing and leading ones away from him? As servants we also do not want this to be so. But lets check out a few examples to see if you agree..
Someone is in charge of building a bridge, and although the blueprints gave them specific instructions they decided to not only reject those instructions but tell others on the project the incorrect instructions. In this situation who is liable for any damage, injury or death? Also, who would the City place much more blame on... the one in charge or those following his orders without knowledge of incorrect changes?
Another example, same man building the bridge has the blueprints but misunderstands the instructions. A City worker with years more knowledge and experience stops by and immediately corrects him and tells him the correct way to go about his project. However, this man decides to still do it his own way, is this man still not considered as bad as the first example since also chose to reject proper instruction?
We even know how important it is to try to make sure of things first since even if this man had misunderstandings and never got corrected nor meant to deliberately do wrong and damage, injury or death occurred he STILL is held accountable, maybe to a lesser degree than the previous examples but still accountable, make sense?
When you say conjecture and opinions is all we have, that is a true statement when talking about everyday life to a degree, however for ones who believe in the bible we don't have to guess since the words are clearly written for much of the bible. Now I give you there are parts of the bible less clear not yet revealed so some DO have personal interpretation and argue and I do NOT like that nor does God but for the parts that affect our beliefs, service, and do's and don'ts we don't have to guess.
I agree also that truth should always stand up to questioning, without knowing it you backed 2 Cor 13:5 to keep testing (or examining) we're in the faith. However, with that being said the bible is clear NOT to be deceived by false teachers, wolf in sheep's clothing or ones who prey on ones to deceive. While truth should hold up to false teachers/ teachings we do not voluntarily expose ourselves to such teachings for fear or being mislead.
We are specifically talking about people who were once part of your religion, but have since come to believe differently, not people who believe differently and always have. I've made that clear, you've made that clear. My points apply to people who once believed as you do, and no longer do -- what you call an apostate.
So, again, how do you come to the conclusion that because someone has come to believe differently than you do, that they are purposely/knowingly teaching something they know to be untrue? You have no basis for saying such a thing, but if you label someone as a liar, then you can ignore them. In reality, people have been in your religion, have studied for themselves and have come to believe that your religion is WRONG. So, they are now speaking what they believe to be truth. That does not make them liars, so stop labeling them as such.
What you call "false teachers" are simply people who have a different understanding, now, then they once did. It is fear that your beliefs can't stand up to their scrutiny that causes your religion to shun them.
That's the tactic.... Assign the label of liar and satanic to anyone who has come to believe that what your brand of religion teaches as truth , isn't truth. That way, when they tell you what they believe is false about your religion you can assume the worst about their motives and avoid having your beliefs challenged. Effective fear tactic, a form of mind control. It's hardly unique to JWs, of course.
We are specifically talking about people who were once part of your religion, but have since come to believe differently, not people who believe differently and always have. I've made that clear, you've made that clear. My points apply to people who once believed as you do, and no longer do -- what you call an apostate.
So, again, how do you come to the conclusion that because someone has come to believe differently than you do, that they are purposely/knowingly teaching something they know to be untrue? You have no basis for saying such a thing, but if you label someone as a liar, then you can ignore them. In reality, people have been in your religion, have studied for themselves and have come to believe that your religion is WRONG. So, they are now speaking what they believe to be truth. That does not make them liars, so stop labeling them as such.
What you call "false teachers" are simply people who have a different understanding, now, then they once did. It is fear that your beliefs can't stand up to their scrutiny that causes your religion to shun them.
I have an question for you to start... if you find the bible to be false or a myth like the lord of the rings book why do you spend so much time in a Christian forum? Just curious and like a civil honest answer in return.
When you say "once a part of my religion" what do you say is "my religion"? First, I don't reject the label if branded me as Peter mentioned but I do not label myself Christian. Jesus never identified us by that name and the words' history was placed as a form of mocking on his followers. Like the disciples and even the Beareans I'm servant of God and student of the bible who tries to live as the bible instructs and base my beliefs on Gods word, no more no less.
I think you mistake me for someone else as I've never told you nor anyone I have absolute knowledge. We are all imperfect and do make mistakes however, the bible does tell us that we can gain accurate knowledge when we use the bible accurately and not add or subtract from it. Maybe you've even ran into ones that have done this so it would be a valid question why some would be so certain when MANY more get it so wrong then call others apostates. Why you're talking to someone who left his Christian sect and some consider an apostate because my bible beliefs do not agree with their religious org or sect, how ironic?
Sadly many feel only their way is right, have internal motives, want to live or worship in THEIR way and turn away from truth. Now you ask me how can I personally be sure what I teach or believe is truth. First, once again, I use the bible as my litmus test. Second, if there are questions not clear to me I take time to research and pray over it. While I go to people more mature spiritually for advice and counsel I do not rely ONLY on mans thoughts as we all are imperfect. I to weigh all the facts the same way a judge/ jury weighs evidence before coming to a verdict. This sometimes takes days, weeks, or months but God says he provides wisdom to those earnestly seeking it in abundance and if ones are sincerely working towards truths the bible becomes more clear. Now do I still have scriptures or topics I am unclear of? Absolutely! But on matters that the bible is not clear about I leave to others conscience so you see I never force people into any thought, I show them my thoughts from the bible and ask their thoughts. Whatever they end up believing is between them and God but if I can provide adjustment I will.
While you are correct many Christians (and lets be fair other religious organizations) over decades, and even in early Christian congregations have falsely, unfairly or unjustly labeled ones as apostates to their faith that did not meet it's true intended definition and resulted in death, ostracized, or expulsion it also can be said that false prophets, deceivers and twisters of Gods word have also preyed upon Gods people, caused wars, death and embarrassment on Gods name. These men believed as you do they were "simply people who have a different understanding" but at what cost? Ones who say there are no apostates are calling God a liar since these were his words and if they say there are apostates each one of us must examine ourselves to make sure we're in the faith as God holds us individually responsible for what we teach.
The difference with me is if someone can prove from the bible my thoughts are incorrect I IMMEDIATELY re-adjust. However, many today want to only be lead by their own desires and not open to any agreement. They instead want to go by their own beliefs so they celebrate things that are pagan, live lifestyles that contradict the bible and many other things but then get mad when corrected by someone who has truth. Not all who correct are saying the person IS an apostate but we ALL must be open to correction.
Provs 12:15 "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel." and Prov 16:2 "All a person's ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the LORD."
Have I also not said I provide my basis of thought based on bible scriptures and for that person to compare or even provide me with their thoughts? Do I take from only my own personal interpretation and judge others, if so when? Did a preacher, pastor, elder or the pope instruct me as to what to believe or not? Have I not repeatedly over again showed you from the bible scriptures that back my points without judging even you nor calling you evil? You can choose to keep thinking I'm someone I'm not or these are my own words but you would be wrong these are my thoughts based on CLEAR scriptures what identifies false prophets/ teachers, I don't need to call anyone out since the bible shows you can tell the condition of the tree by the fruits it produces.
I have an question for you to start... if you find the bible to be false or a myth like the lord of the rings book why do you spend so much time in a Christian forum? Just curious and like a civil honest answer in return.
I never said that I think of the bible in that way.
Quote:
When you say "once a part of my religion" what do you say is "my religion"? First, I don't reject the label if branded me as Peter mentioned but I do not label myself Christian. Jesus never identified us by that name and the words' history was placed as a form of mocking on his followers. Like the disciples and even the Beareans I'm servant of God and student of the bible who tries to live as the bible instructs and base my beliefs on Gods word, no more no less.
I think you mistake me for someone else as I've never told you nor anyone I have absolute knowledge. We are all imperfect and do make mistakes however, the bible does tell us that we can gain accurate knowledge when we use the bible accurately and not add or subtract from it. Maybe you've even ran into ones that have done this so it would be a valid question why some would be so certain when MANY more get it so wrong then call others apostates. Why you're talking to someone who left his Christian sect and some consider an apostate because my bible beliefs do not agree with their religious org or sect, how ironic?
Sadly many feel only their way is right, have internal motives, want to live or worship in THEIR way and turn away from truth. Now you ask me how can I personally be sure what I teach or believe is truth. First, once again, I use the bible as my litmus test. Second, if there are questions not clear to me I take time to research and pray over it. While I go to people more mature spiritually for advice and counsel I do not rely ONLY on mans thoughts as we all are imperfect. I to weigh all the facts the same way a judge/ jury weighs evidence before coming to a verdict. This sometimes takes days, weeks, or months but God says he provides wisdom to those earnestly seeking it in abundance and if ones are sincerely working towards truths the bible becomes more clear. Now do I still have scriptures or topics I am unclear of? Absolutely! But on matters that the bible is not clear about I leave to others conscience so you see I never force people into any thought, I show them my thoughts from the bible and ask their thoughts. Whatever they end up believing is between them and God but if I can provide adjustment I will.
No, I didn't ask you how you can be personally sure that what you teach or believe is truth. I asked you how you can be certain that other people are intending to deceive others by what they teach? Why don't you, rather, assume that what they teach is what they personally believe to be true? And then don't call them liars and deceivers simply because they are not in agreement with you.
Quote:
While you are correct many Christians (and lets be fair other religious organizations) over decades, and even in early Christian congregations have falsely, unfairly or unjustly labeled ones as apostates to their faith that did not meet it's true intended definition and resulted in death, ostracized, or expulsion it also can be said that false prophets, deceivers and twisters of Gods word have also preyed upon Gods people, caused wars, death and embarrassment on Gods name. These men believed as you do they were "simply people who have a different understanding" but at what cost? Ones who say there are no apostates are calling God a liar since these were his words and if they say there are apostates each one of us must examine ourselves to make sure we're in the faith as God holds us individually responsible for what we teach.
The difference with me is if someone can prove from the bible my thoughts are incorrect I IMMEDIATELY re-adjust. However, many today want to only be lead by their own desires and not open to any agreement. They instead want to go by their own beliefs so they celebrate things that are pagan, live lifestyles that contradict the bible and many other things but then get mad when corrected by someone who has truth. Not all who correct are saying the person IS an apostate but we ALL must be open to correction.
Provs 12:15 "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But a wise man is he who listens to counsel." and Prov 16:2 "All a person's ways seem pure to them, but motives are weighed by the LORD."
Have I also not said I provide my basis of thought based on bible scriptures and for that person to compare or even provide me with their thoughts? Do I take from only my own personal interpretation and judge others, if so when? Did a preacher, pastor, elder or the pope instruct me as to what to believe or not? Have I not repeatedly over again showed you from the bible scriptures that back my points without judging even you nor calling you evil? You can choose to keep thinking I'm someone I'm not or these are my own words but you would be wrong these are my thoughts based on CLEAR scriptures what identifies false prophets/ teachers, I don't need to call anyone out since the bible shows you can tell the condition of the tree by the fruits it produces.
My friend, you are taking this conversation way too personally. I have been referring, in general, to the practice of shunning "apostates". And, as I recall, you responded to a post that I had made to someone else. I have no problem with you joining the conversation ... that's what message boards are for ... but just understand that what I was saying was never directed at you, personally, but at the practice of shunning in general.
I never said that I think of the bible in that way.
No, I didn't ask you how you can be personally sure that what you teach or believe is truth. I asked you how you can be certain that other people are intending to deceive others by what they teach? Why don't you, rather, assume that what they teach is what they personally believe to be true? And then don't call them liars and deceivers simply because they are not in agreement with you.
My friend, you are taking this conversation way too personally. I have been referring, in general, to the practice of shunning "apostates". And, as I recall, you responded to a post that I had made to someone else. I have no problem with you joining the conversation ... that's what message boards are for ... but just understand that what I was saying was never directed at you, personally, but at the practice of shunning in general.
True you didn't use that phrase but go back to your previous comments and even you have to admit you put you don't hold the bible in high regard like most Christians so my question was valid.
There might have been some miscommunication here. You say you were not addressing me personally but keep using "you"? If you did not intend for me to take it personal then isn't a better word "they" or "others"? Or maybe asked hypothetically? I'm not the sound piece for all Christians, true or false, so do not know why some are evil, lie, or label ones unfairly I was only sharing my thoughts. The only certainty is man will continue to go from bad to worse as the bible states and the ones with truth will continue to be the minority and persecuted for their beliefs as Jesus says in the bible.
Lastly I mentioned before yes some do teach what they believe to be true rather than the bible, so not sure why you ask me that again when I told you I don't. But I forgot... you were generalizing. lol jk!
True you were talking to someone else so I will bow out and let you two continue but as you said this is a forum so as I welcome all to share their thoughts I thought you as well. I hope we can at least agree on that false accusation against ones is completely wrong and God will resolve in his due time. Have a good weekend.
An apostate is someone who was once a member of a Church and now takes a direct stand against it. He has apostatized and scripturally he is to be rejected.
This is different than an opposer who has never been a part of a specific Church or group.
In fact an EX Baptist may well be viewed as an apostate by his church if he becomes a Mormon and speaks against his former Baptist religion BUT, he is not an apostate to a Lutheran or Methodist, etc.
Just leaving a Church or group does not make one an apostate, nor does even disagreeing with one or more teachings, it is the active speaking out against their former brothers over that disagreement and particularly to members of his former Church.
Kjw47 your comments shows you're getting desperate and angry as you're getting exposed as being on the same milk you accuse everyone on this site and the world of being on. I was a JW so out of everyone on here you cannot tell me what JW's think and don't think. I know we all thought anyone not a JW was "worldly" a term I come to loathe since no man should judge in such a general term. I know we all thought only we could be united and show love as Christians. And I also know for certainty majority of JW's believe no one outside can have "truth", as a matter of fact when ones join they say they join the "truth". In service if someone has a correct understanding of the bible we didn't have many still will debunk it unless the Governing Body says it's so, even if it takes years to do so. But I'm also balanced in saying many JW's DO have the correct view on others not just JW's and balanced thinking as well. So don't act like I'm bashing since all one has to do is read my previous posts to see I've always been fair, including our discussions, about JW's as I have with other individuals in other sects.
You can tell a fruit from its tree so while I've dealt with you with respect you have not responded in kind. All who read your responses can see if you're the representative of truth, love, and peace then no wonder so many reject God and become atheist or agnostic. But I hope ones can see the weeds from the wheat and you do NOT represent the MANY excellent loving JW's, the same JW's who would think of you or any other JW on this forum as spiritually weak for being on this site.
Michael I agree with everything you have said. I had an experience with a JW who flat out cornered me and assumed that I read the KJV Bible because it omits the tetragrammaton or name of Jehovah. As I told her, I don't read the KJV Bible only, I read many translations, including the NWT when I want to read how they translated certain verses. What bothers me, is the zealot JW who assumes that all of us church people are now well versed in Scripture.
That's the tactic.... Assign the label of liar and satanic to anyone who has come to believe that what your brand of religion teaches as truth , isn't truth. That way, when they tell you what they believe is false about your religion you can assume the worst about their motives and avoid having your beliefs challenged. Effective fear tactic, a form of mind control. It's hardly unique to JWs, of course.
Pleroo, A correction is in order to your understanding of what I posted. And here I post it again with highlights this time...
Quote:
Pleroo are you talking about people who have come to an accurate understanding of Jesus and God?
Or are you talking about people who misunderstand, have been mislead, or whose knowledge is incomplete? There is world of difference.
Take a step back and ask yourself the following. Had you been a Christian in
the early days of Christianity...
Would it have been ok for those early Christians, let's say the apostles, to
accept brothers/sisters who accepted Jesus as the Savior but who then turned
around and rejected Jesus as the Christ?
Did some early Christians attempt to cause divisionsamong their brothers
and sisters? What does the Bible teach about those people?
I know some, perhaps you, do not believe in Satan as an entity. Satan was
real to Jesus. He was tempted by him so I'll accept what Jesus taught over
anything that men say...
Consider what Jesus said in John 8:44 about Satan? Do you think there was
any harm done? Is there wisdom to be gained from those who know the truth but
lie? Some would consider him (Satan) the first apostate "You belong to your
father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.He was a
murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a
liar and the father of lies."
Witnesses come in contact frequently with people who challenge their beliefs. It's not just limited to going out door to door but can happen at school and at work. This does NOT make an apostate. Therefore it's not accurate for you to say that, "ANYONE who has come to believe...your brand of religion...isn't truth." would cause one to assume the "worst." What of the Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists that Witnesses encounter all the time. Do we assume the worst because they question our beliefs. There are accounts related by fellow Witnesses who at one time opposed Witnesses violently yet came to be called a brother (or sister).
The quote from John was, I had hoped (but apparently failed), a means to convey that apostasy represents a turning away from what one knows is the truth and then being deceitful to mislead others and cause divisions. There are Witnesses who have simply stopped associating with other Witnesses because they may have been stumbled by the behavior of some. However, that would not make such a person an apostate.
I was a former [ fill in the blank] and considered myself between religions although I've been in contact with Witnesses (wife and kids) for years but have made a personal choice and was recently baptized. Yet I harbor no ill will to anyone of my former faith.
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That would be applicable to ones who ARE bible students and believe it is inspired by God and its benefits as mentioned in 2 Tim 3:16.
