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Old 02-03-2009, 06:39 PM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 2,609,270 times
Reputation: 538

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
A true Christian (one who is born of God) does not willfully rebel against God and disobey God's commandments by committing sin.

Why is that hard to understand for some? John told us how to test ourselves....


1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;


HK
Do you believe that if a Christian unwillingly sins, he can repent and be forgiven for that sin? If I understand you right, you believe that a true Christian CANNOT willfully commit sin, correct? So if they do, they are not truly a Christian to begin with, or they are condemned. Yes?
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Old 02-03-2009, 06:47 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,061,947 times
Reputation: 113
[quote=RobinD69;7300875


Before I was born again, I was evil, yes I could fake being good, but I was evil. I have shared portions of my testimony before, but to be truthful and blunt about it, I was evil. Once I was born again, that evil wanted to keep hold on me and tried to justify my staying the same as I was before becoming a new creation. I searched the scriptures for anything that could justify me staying evil and still going to heaven. There is nothing in there, either you focus on Christ in everything you do or you sin. His grace is sufficient for us all, but we must commit to Him and fight our own evil. This is staying the course, constantly seeking Christ even when we fall short.[/quote]


I agree completely Robin... the problem with many Christians is that they have been told that they are born of God even if they continue to willfully sin. The one who is truly born of God knows what you wrote is the truth.

One can belive in Jesus and not yet have grwon to the point where they are "born of God". They are like the babe in the womb - they have the spark of life but have not yet grown to the point where they are born.

Spiritually speaking one is not born again - a new creature until they repent of sin. And Repent means to commit to God to cease from all known sin completely and forever... it is possible because God will never let us be tempted beyond what we are able to obey.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

For those who are born of God and receive the knowledge of the truth then turn back to willful sin there is no hope - they are like the dog who returns to his vomit...

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

For the one who is born of God and rebels against His Lord there remains only this warning:

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

HK
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Old 02-03-2009, 07:00 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,061,947 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
Do you believe that if a Christian unwillingly sins, he can repent and be forgiven for that sin? If I understand you right, you believe that a true Christian CANNOT willfully commit sin, correct? So if they do, they are not truly a Christian to begin with, or they are condemned. Yes?

Absolutely - Old Testament and New one can be forgiven for sins of ignorance or unintentional sin by confessing and turning away from that sin.

And likewise - Old Testament and New the child of God cannot be forgiven of willful or presumptuous sin.


Ezekiel 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

God distinguishes between sins of ignorance and willful (presumptuous) sin.

For example, in the book of Numbers, we find those two types of sin compared:

SINS OF IGNORANCE (These were forgiven)

Numbers 15:27 And if any soul sin through IGNORANCE, then he
shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.

15:28 An the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that
SINNETH IGNORANTLY, when he sinneth by ignorance before the
Lord, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

SINS OF PRESUMPTION (Not forgiven)

Numbers 15:30 BUT the soul that doeth aught
PRESUMPTUOUSLY, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger,
the same reproacheth [blasphemeth] the Lord; and that soul shall be
cut off from among his people.

15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath
broken his commandment, that soul shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."

Those Israelites who deliberately broke God's commandments were
not forgiven!


HK
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Old 02-03-2009, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,191 posts, read 3,214,433 times
Reputation: 593
I look at the prodigal son, he rebelled and his state of living was far worse than he could imagine, but when he returned to the father, knowing he had failed, knowing he should have resisted temptation but did not, he was willing to be less than the servents just to survive. This is trully humblings oneself and seeking the father, and He is just to forgive even the worst offense.

We go with the verse of returning to ones vomit. Consider this, you are a Christian and your walk is all hunky doory, you become full of pride. God knows you try but you have a few strongholds, like pride. Gods hand is upon you, but your pride is building a wall between you and God and you may not realize it, but you are getting further and further from God because of your pride. You are tempted by a previous sin you thought was gone and it drives you crazy trying to resist it. You do not understand why you are having such difficulty resisting this temptation. You do not realize that your focus on this sin as well as your pride are working together to build a thicker wall between you and God. You think God has forsaken you because you are finding it difficult to resist adding week faith to the wall that is building up. Now because of pride you convince yourself that you are not sinning so why is the temptation so strong. In a moment of weekness you give in and think you have found relief when in fact you have piled sin upon sin. What have you done wrong? You have let pride convince you that you are sinless when in fact just forgot to take it to the Lord and tried to rely on your false sense of righteousness.

Very seldom does a Christian sin willfully but several small unconsious sins can build up and blind you to the concious sin that you inadvertently commit and you feel worse than if you had never met God to begin with.
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Old 02-03-2009, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 2,609,270 times
Reputation: 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
Absolutely - Old Testament and New one can be forgiven for sins of ignorance or unintentional sin by confessing and turning away from that sin.

And likewise - Old Testament and New the child of God cannot be forgiven of willful or presumptuous sin.


Ezekiel 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

God distinguishes between sins of ignorance and willful (presumptuous) sin.

For example, in the book of Numbers, we find those two types of sin compared:

SINS OF IGNORANCE (These were forgiven)

Numbers 15:27 And if any soul sin through IGNORANCE, then he
shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.

15:28 An the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that
SINNETH IGNORANTLY, when he sinneth by ignorance before the
Lord, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

SINS OF PRESUMPTION (Not forgiven)

Numbers 15:30 BUT the soul that doeth aught
PRESUMPTUOUSLY, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger,
the same reproacheth [blasphemeth] the Lord; and that soul shall be
cut off from among his people.

15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath
broken his commandment, that soul shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."

Those Israelites who deliberately broke God's commandments were
not forgiven!


HK
Thank you Harold for answering. I think this was the clearest of your posts yet, for others to know exactly what you believe.
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Old 02-03-2009, 07:33 PM
 
342 posts, read 329,516 times
Reputation: 97
A "true" Christian.......Is a Christian who has repented of sin and has put their complete trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation...... When they accept Jesus Christ as Lord they are born again by FAITH....they do not rely on their goodworks or being able to live a perfect life.(Only Jesus did that.... contrary to what some on this forum may think about themselves). The Christian walk is a process leading towards sanctification.....The life of a true Christain will not be characterized by sin, and if they do sin the Holy Spirit which lives within every Christian will convict that person of sin leading them to godly sorrow asking the Lord's forgiveness......They will continue to grow in the Lord and will demonstrate the Fruit of the Spirit:Love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, patience,kindness,faithfulness,self-control.....BY THEIR FRUIT YOU WILL KNOW THEM....they will want to obey God and spread the hope of the Gospel......They will not be judgemental of others but will patiently teach and correct others. Above all they will be HUMBLE knowing that they were saved by GRACE......they will be forgiving in nature because they were and are forgiven.

Last edited by Vessif; 02-03-2009 at 08:00 PM..
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Old 02-03-2009, 07:40 PM
 
876 posts, read 872,414 times
Reputation: 117
Red face Sins

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
Since this has been discussed a lot recently, I would love for everyone to just say which they agree with. I'm hoping Donna Kupp and Harold Kupp will participate so everyone can understand their beliefs, because I think there is a lot of confusion.

1. A TRUE CHRISTIAN can sin, but be sorry for that sin, and repent and confess their sin to God and be forgiven.

2. A TRUE CHRISTIAN cannot/will not/does not sin, period. If one does, they are a phony Christian.

Pretty simple. I'm not asking for scripture to back up your belief, just post which one is your belief. Thank you!

Hello and greetings to you

Yes I do believe that anyone is capable of falling in to sin, rather we are Jews, Christians and Gentiles. Is impossible to hold your breath for a very long time, and there are some that can, But those are very rare moments and even in supervision, a righteous man can sin too. But the question is what constitute a sin?
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Old 02-03-2009, 07:41 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,587 posts, read 3,665,054 times
Reputation: 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
Since this has been discussed a lot recently, I would love for everyone to just say which they agree with. I'm hoping Donna Kupp and Harold Kupp will participate so everyone can understand their beliefs, because I think there is a lot of confusion.

1. A TRUE CHRISTIAN can sin, but be sorry for that sin, and repent and confess their sin to God and be forgiven.

2. A TRUE CHRISTIAN cannot/will not/does not sin, period. If one does, they are a phony Christian.

Pretty simple. I'm not asking for scripture to back up your belief, just post which one is your belief. Thank you!
Well, I believe that a true Christian who is living for God will mess up from time to time. Because God sent his Son to die in our place, because he new we would mess up, and could not live up to his standard. If it was not true, the Jesus death would not have happened. A true Christian who is serious with God, and walks with God is still not perfect, only Jesus was.

So, I choose 1, God tells us to turn from our wicked ways and turn back to him. He also tells us to repent and sin nomore.
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Old 02-03-2009, 07:47 PM
 
342 posts, read 329,516 times
Reputation: 97
Our Father who art in heaven,hallowed be thy name; thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven; give us this day our daily bread and "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil.....AMEN................Jesus himself told us to pray this way.......If you want to be forgiven you must forgive...... In the story of the prodigel's son the younger son committed the obvious sins; the older "obedient" brother who never got into trouble commits a more insidious sin "unforgiveness" and pride..........for those quick to judge others be careful and remember you were saved by God's Grace
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Old 02-03-2009, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Conservative in Liberal California
1,609 posts, read 1,570,587 times
Reputation: 11068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vessif View Post
A "true" Christian.......Is a Christian who has repented of sin and has put their complete trust in Jesus Christ for their salvation...... When they accept Jesus Christ as Lord they are born again by FAITH....they do not rely on their goodworks or being able to live a perfect life.(Only Jesus did that.... contrary to what some on this forum may think about themselves). The Christian walk is a process leading towards sanctification.....The life of a true Christain will not be characterized by sin, and if they do sin the Holy Spirit which lives within every Christian will convict that person of sin leading them to godly sorrow asking the Lord's forgiveness......They will continue to grow in the Lord and will demonstrate the Fruit of the Spirit:Love, joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, patience,kindness,faithfulness,self-control.....BY THEIR FRUIT YOU WILL KNOW THEM....they will want to obey God and spread the hope of the Gospel......They will not be judgemental of others but will patiently teach and correct others. Above all they will be HUMBLE knowing that they were saved by GRACE......they will be forgiving in nature because they were and are forgiven.
# 1

Great post Vessif!
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