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Old 02-05-2009, 01:35 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,148,080 times
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In line with the sin focus threads I am reposting this for your perusal.

One cannot define sin without the law(s) removing subjectivity of the law and interpretations of the law(s) is an object lesson.

So why did Jesus come? If you look up save in the NT the 1st verse you get is this:
Mat 1:21 And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.
It does not say save from hell, save from judgment, merely save from sins.

Now we all know, post Jesus, sin still exists as defined by the law. We have been indoctrinated with the fallacy of the original sin of Adam which we somehow inherit genetically and hence we need a Saviour to change all that. We go through the motions of a sinner's prayer and maybe even experience a re-birth of sorts. We are baptised and are told, we bury Adam and stand up in newness with Christ, yet sin remains. So it looks like we did not drown Adam after all.

The original sin.

Traditionally, this is when Adam partook of the forbidden fruit and I guess most folk see the fruit as literal or partly symbolic. Usually the teaching focuses on disobedience and we take it Adam was made righteous and fell from grace when he was disobedient. Not True

God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of Good & Evil, there was no command as to the tree of life. If you read carefully, God caused all the trees to grow and there was also the two other trees.

We take the original sin to mean "eating of the fruit" when "commanded not to". For me to get my point over, I need to offer alternative words for eat of. I will use dwell on.

The clue is found in what Adam did next. Taking matters into his own hands, he made aprons to hide his nudity and hid away from God - GUILT.

God comes as He always did in the cool of the day looking for Adam. At this part of the story, why would God call out to Adam? He knew what he had done, He is Omniscient, Omnipresent yet calls our "Adam, where are you."

When Adam reveals himself, God does not condemn him, He asks 2 questions:

Who told you, you were naked?
Did you eat of the fruit I commanded you not to eat of?

Disobedience was one of the original sins, however, the 2nd sin was Adam took matters into his own hands. They did something wrong in their eyes and I am guessing the clue lies with Eve.

Let us forgo the serpent as literal for a moment. Eve is alone, she knows either by command from God or Adam she also knew not to eat thereof and in fact not even to touch it. She gives into her desires, and partakes and encourages Adam to do the same. And all of a sudden their eyes are opened. Opened to what? Do you really think that it was their nakedness?

They now became aware of the knowledge of Good and Evil. It was predestined that this would happen. God did not place that tree there w/o a purpose, it was not a temptation. That tree is symbolic of what we all have in us, the ability to learn Good from Evil, Light from Darkness et al.

Do not eat of it = do not dwell on it. It was not satan that made them fall as a 3rd person, it was their carnal flesh, called intuition, called inquisitiveness, all natural traits we are born with.

"Sin is our tutor" (kind of).

When God came looking after the "fall", nothing had changed for God, He still reached out and came into the presence of the Garden. He still desired fellowship. Adam had discovered EGO. He became egocentric, what ever he had done did not change the status quo with God, God was not affected by what they did, He did not suddenly change into an Ogre, sadly that is how we are taught He is. So the focus from Adam's perspective was on self and no longer on God. God knew what had happened and it was part of His plan. Also part of His plan was the tree of life, in fact that tree also exists in us from birth.

We are told He never leaves us nor forsakes us, it rains on the just and unjust, He is no respecter of persons etc. It thus stands to reason that our sin does not move God whatsoever. He still desires relationship and He never once failed on His part.

You find a clue in Genesis 4 when God spoke with Cain.
Gen 4:3 And in the end of days, it happened, Cain brought to Jehovah an offering of the fruit of the ground.
Gen 4:4 And Abel also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat of it. And Jehovah had respect to Abel and to his offering,
The only difference was as I have highlighted. It is not symbolic of the blood sacrifice vs the crops Cain brought. Had Cain brought the first fruits, his offering would have been equal. Symbolic of this is also the regard Abel had of God and the regard Cain had of God. One was 1st on the list and the other was on the list.
Gen 4:5 but He did not have respect to Cain and to his offering. And Cain glowed with anger, and his face fell.
Gen 4:6 And Jehovah said to Cain, Why have you angrily glowed? And why did your face fall?
Notice here the admonition. Same as with Adam, no condemnation, just questions
Gen 4:7a If you do well, shall you not be accepted?

Gen 4:7b And if you do not do well, sin crouches at the door; and its desire is for you, and you shall rule over it.
Here is the crux. God does not say if you do not do well, it is sin.

Let me rephrase the last part:

and its desire is for you (you will become sin focused), and you shall rule over it (you will invent laws to govern it).

Thus sin is ruled by law and law feeds off sin. In effect, the more sin focused you are, the further you walk away from the Father. He never walks away from you.

When Cain was banished after killing Abel, no one was allowed to touch him. If his sin was so horrific, he would have been smitten there and then.

Recall vs. Reconciliation

The Father was able at the 1st occurrence to wipe the slate clean, do a recall and start over again, yet He did not do that. He knew what He was doing and when Adam and Eve exercised their God given right to procreate, delegated to them by God, God never intervened - the plan moved forward.

Now if you cannot see this simple truth, then however you read the rest of the bible will be tainted and that unfortunately is what has happened over the millenia.

FF to Moses and we get the 10 laws. Very simple and really if you think about it at least 6 are built into most constitutions world-wide, even adultery is as least covered in civil laws. That leaves only three, worshiping the true God and the sabbath but even the sabbath, is in a way a day of rest in many countries. That leaves two maybe?

Now I am not sure if you have ever noticed, the way Jesus summarized the Law is nowhere to be found in the 10 anywhere. Makes one think eh?

Look it up Exodus 20 or Deuteronomy 5 then compare it to:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
Nowhere in the 10 commandments does it say we are to love our neighbor as ourselves, in fact even the first one is paraphrased. Strange the gatekeepers of Moses' law never challenged Jesus on this?

Was Jesus trying to tell/show us something?

Most accept this verbatim and never look at the details.

Back to the original sin.

I hope you can see now, even what we assume to be the original sin is questionable. We can only surmise what it actually was, I have heard many ideas - we do not know yet we base a whole theological bias based upon a wrong interpretation. It is not eating of fruit. Yet......

FF to the NT. We see the two trees mentioned again and in fact it comes up also as wheat and tares, sweet and bitter spring, a tongue that both blesses and curses. All of these are taught wrong. Even in one occurrence when a blind man was touched he saw men as trees - I wonder what was the significance to this?

Both trees exist in us simultaneously but neither bring forth opposite fruit. The good tree (ToL) brings forth good fruit and the other (ToKoG&E) bad fruit. If you can see this then maybe you may see where or how sin still exists after your rebirth/baptism.

When we receive our breath of life at birth (His Spirit), that is of the Father and in that is the ToL. We are born with the other tree in us, it is our nature, it is our tutor, it is there for a reason, hence that is why it never goes away.

In Adam's "fallen" state, he had to be removed from the garden to not eat of the ToL. A process had kicked off for mankind to procreate and learn.

Ultimately Jesus would come and the time He came was when primitive technology was there to take the message of the gospel to all nations via the then Roman empire. (another topic)

Man became so egocentric and eventually still in the fallen state wanted to reconcile (in the flesh) to God, his Creator. Enter the law(s). This did not cut it as all that the law(s) did was keep folk in a state of oblations and sacrifice for sins, guilt appeasement. Appease your guilt and you will still sin but now there is a system of dealing with it.
The law and sin feed off each other. They are mutually co-dependent.
This is called religion.

In all religions there is a benevolent god but one that requires some form of punishment and judgment even Christendom.

From day 1, God (the Father) has not changed. Jesus who knew the Father's heart intimately revealed this to us. He would die for this revelation.

I have said many times, sin is no biggie for the Father and still is no biggie. What we do does not affect the Father. Some are of the opinion that we hurt God when we sin - wrong - we only hurt ourselves. It is this hurt that the Father sees and is perhaps concerned with. Just like Adam, He calls out, "Adam where are you?"
Most are in fig leaf aprons of law and works missing the the true relationship with the Father.

We are so indoctrinated that we are not able to enter in in this sinful state and then the Jesus story is used to defer the sin to the cross. It still does not make you feel closer to God knowing this does it?

No!

You are all still managing sin with law and hence remain in the flesh, thus you eat of/dwell upon the wrong tree. The ToL is where the answer lies and it is of that tree we must partake, that brings forth good fruit. We slip and fall and do sometimes eat of the wrong tree, hence the fruit is bad.

The wrong tree has the law we invent to try and do good in the flesh. All the while the Father cries out, "Adam, where are you?" yes Adam, the fallen one, the fleshly one, the hopeless one, the pathetic one, the (.........insert all you were taught of how bad we are) That is the person God calls out to not the ToL in us. The longer you dwell on the wrong tree, the longer you bring forth tares and bitter water. There are many scrips I can quote to confirm this.

It is not an us and them, it is us and us only.

Now what am I trying to say that sin is no biggie? Is it thus OK to sin? No!

If I can sum it up like this:

The closer you move towards the Father (ToL) the further you walk away from sin (ToKoG&E).

This is the message Jesus taught, Father's Love (Unconditional)

Here is a shock. Unconditional Love requires no sacrifice for sin, no animals, neither the death of Jesus. It also requires no hell as punishment.

In this age, it is sufficient, we suffer the consequences of our sins, be it guilt, rejection or even punishment if it is a law of the land you break.

Does that mean then we ignore what Jesus did? No!

We are made to feel so rotten about ourselves that we see ourselves holding the hammer in one hand and a spear in the other hand and in effect that we individually nailed Jesus to the cross and that we pierced His side.

Jesus said:
Joh 8:15 You judge after the flesh, I judge no one.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent Me.
How many more scrips are there that show the same? The only ones Jesus judged was the religious. He used their subjective law(s) and turned it against them.

Jesus came to show us to take our focus off sin and the law that judged it. Jesus was not a legalist. Law and Grace do not mix hence today what most espouse is little more than half truths and a half truth is a lie.
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change
The first "Yes but...." thought that comes to your mind, think about it. You are taking a bias you were brought up with to argue against what I have just shared. Of course you are entitled to your POV just as I am.

This is not a "feel-good" doctrine, in fact it is not a doctrine at all. It does however challenge the way we think and what we think we know.

I can hear your thoughts;

What about the flood?
What about Sodom and Gomorrah?
What about the law?
What about death of Jesus on the Cross?
Is everything we know wrong?

This is how I view sin.

Sin focus is always subjective and 37000 "truths" exist and maybe even as many as 6.7Bn - all subjective. Hence:
Luk 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return. And your reward shall be great, and you shall be the sons of the Highest. For He is kind to the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36 Therefore be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven.
Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given to you, good measure pressed down and shaken together and running over, they shall give into your bosom. For with the same measure that you measure, it shall be measured to you again.
The only common thing that is objective is God Loves us Unconditionally. Any "yes but..." make it conditional. It is hard for us to accept Unconditional Love as our love is always conditional carnally speaking.

We have no words to describe this Awesome Love.

Folk mention White and Black. I say both will show off different colors. Hence absolute evil "exposes" goodness while absolute holiness "exposes" evil. Opposites teach us of opposites.

W/O evil how would we discern goodness and visa versa? That is the tree of KoG&E, we are not to eat of it, touch it, dwell on it. There is no life found in self management however religious it seems.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 But the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
We are no longer bound to laws and man-made doctrines
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh;
Rom 8:4 so that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they who are according to the flesh mind the things of flesh, but they who are according to the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
This blue part to me really reveals all those that condemn others sinfulness like homo bashers etc.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace
Carnality leads only to death - that includes judging others based on a religious bias
Rom 8:7 because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
Rom 8:8 So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But (IF) you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
I modified the above with IF. Ironic how when we do judge where does that place us Spirit or Flesh?
Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.
This is not about the hereafter - it is about NOW
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die. But if you through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba, Father!
In fact the whole chapter is applicable.

Eat thus of the Tree of Life, the Christ in you.
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Old 02-05-2009, 04:23 AM
 
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Hi friend,

you know I have heard put like this.. the opposite of sin is faith. you cannot walk in faith and sin at the same time.

Paul said we were given a spirit of love not of fear. I think Jesus spoke of those two greatest commandments because, he knew if we focused on love,

we would fulfill not only the whole ten, but we'd be walking in his will, and our light would shine among men.
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Old 02-05-2009, 10:08 AM
 
Location: South Africa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave737driver View Post
Hi friend,

you know I have heard put like this.. the opposite of sin is faith. you cannot walk in faith and sin at the same time.

Paul said we were given a spirit of love not of fear. I think Jesus spoke of those two greatest commandments because, he knew if we focused on love,

we would fulfill not only the whole ten, but we'd be walking in his will, and our light would shine among men.
Amen
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Old 02-05-2009, 10:18 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Sin as explained in the Gospel of Mary chapter 4



25) Peter said to him, Since you have explained everything to us, tell us this also: What is the sin of the world?
26) The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin.
27) That is why the Good came into your midst, to the essence of every nature in order to restore it to its root.
28) Then He continued and said, That is why you become sick and die, for you are deprived of the one who can heal you.
29) He who has a mind to understand, let him understand.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:12 PM
 
Location: South Africa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
Sin as explained in the Gospel of Mary chapter 4

25) Peter said to him, Since you have explained everything to us, tell us this also: What is the sin of the world?
26) The Savior said There is no sin, but it is you who make sin when you do the things that are like the nature of adultery, which is called sin.
27) That is why the Good came into your midst, to the essence of every nature in order to restore it to its root.
28) Then He continued and said, That is why you become sick and die, for you are deprived of the one who can heal you.
29) He who has a mind to understand, let him understand.
TY Terry

It actually amazed me when I discovered the gnostic gospels online how much they aligned with what I have discovered. I wonder why they were excluded?

My guess is they cottoned onto something the legalists did not like. Based on Paul's writings, I believe that many were reverting back to the law and he also taught against it.

Those that came to fully understand grace, realized that the two do not mix. The new wine and old wine skins and patch on old garment comes to mind here. and who taught that? Oh yes Jesus.
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Old 02-06-2009, 12:32 AM
 
Location: South Africa
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Default The 10 vs the 2

  1. No other Gods
    Deu 5:7
    ˜You shall have no other gods before Me.
  2. No Idols
    Deu 5:8
    ˜You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
    Deu 5:9
    you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
    Deu 5:10
    but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
  3. Taking the name of the Lord in vain
    Deu 5:11
    ˜You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
  4. The Sabbath
    Deu 5:12
    ˜ Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you.
    Deu 5:13
    Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
    Deu 5:14
    but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.
    Deu 5:15
    And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.
  5. Honor your parents
    Deu 5:16
    ˜ Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may be well with you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
  6. Deu 5:17 ˜You shall not murder.
  7. Deu 5:18 ˜You shall not commit adultery.
  8. Deu 5:19 ˜You shall not steal.
  9. Deu 5:20 ˜You shall not (lie) bear false witness against your neighbor.
  10. Deu 5:21 ˜You shall not covet your neighbor's wife; and you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor"s."
Now we have the "Royal" law as Jesus summed it up.
Mat 22:37 (1)Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 (2)And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
Now unless you have comprehension skills, the law of Jesus does not support the ten commandments in any way.

The first of the 10 does not ask for love nor does it command it.

The only match of the neighbor of the ten comes in the coveting of one's neighbor but that is not what it means does it?

On these two commandments hang all the Law and THE PROPHETS.

This statement does not encapsulate the original law but IMO represents the actual Law the Father intended that was added to by Moses and his Levitical priests.

The word love comes up only once in the 10 and is conditional. Jesus' version is not conditional.

This is the problem with the legalists. The 10 are legalistic and conditional and hence when Jesus says the encapsulating statement, people infer this to include the 10 as is.

Is that so?

Yes?

Well then you need to follow all the other 620 Levitical laws which includes stoning disobedient children and adulterers.

No?

That is the correct answer.

People say Jesus did not replace the law but fulfilled the law. In this most take it that He became the ultimate "final" sacrifice for sin.

Is that true?

Yes?

Well please show me in the 10 where sacrifice for sin is mentioned. Not there? No, it is in the Levitical laws.

Thus if Jesus is the final sacrifice, then that means all the Levitical laws become null and void.

that leaves us just the 10 which is where most folk are at.

Now where are we told to love the Love in the 10?
Deu 5:9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Deu 5:10
but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
Pretty conditional don't you think? I mean here is a threat of a four generational curse preempted before the reward for loving which only equates to not enacting the curse preempted.

Are we responsible for the sins of our forefathers?
Eze 18:3 As I live, says the Lord GOD, you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine;

Eze 18:17 has withdrawn his hand from the poor; has not received usury nor increase; has done My judgments; has walked in My statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father; he shall surely live.
Eze 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Eze 18:21 But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
One of the prophets who had a different opinion to the law of the 10.

the law and the prophets

So if you are hung up on the 10, you need to explain this "amendment"

This is just one of the contradictions between Moses and latter prophets.

David too came to the realization that burnt offerings were not desired nor required, he knew that this was a man-made law and ritual. This is echoed in Hebrews.
Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened; burnt offering and sin offering You have not asked.

Heb 10:8 Above, when He said, "Sacrifice and offering, and burnt offerings and offering for sin You did not desire, neither did You have pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the Law),
This brings us full circle back to the 2 royal laws.

Tell me, how do you:
Mat 22:37 (1)Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind?
It is simple:
Mat 22:39 (2)And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
How else can you demonstrate your love for the unseen w/o doing it for the seen? Notice, this loving one's neighbor, the condition here is to do it as one loves oneself.

So I guess if you cannot love your neighbor (unconditionally), you hate yourself?

And that my friend, is the correct question.

This is why many here say that there is no decent folk because we have been indoctrinated to believe we are NOT worthy.

Strange how religion works? BTW the word religion is derived from and archaic word religāre which means to bind up.

Whom the Son has set free is FREE INDEED.
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Old 02-06-2009, 03:25 AM
 
381 posts, read 665,198 times
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Hi friends,
I wanted to share this tidbit I stumbled upon this morning in the "the daily bread series. Published by RBC ministries, the daily bread is a small book of daily lessons and I have used it since I was saved by grace and called out of this world.

quote:

"pastor Gordon macdonald wrote, "the most costly sins I have committed came at a time when I briefly suspended my reverence for God... I quietly, and insanely, concluded that God didn't care and most likely wouldn't intervene were I to risk the violation of one of his commandments."
Macdonald writes he is learning to reverence obey and thank God, to express appropiate sorrow for sin, to pursue a quietness in which He might hear God whisper.

REF : Exodus 33:11 " So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to a friend."

I must say that after this week of the volatile nature of some of the diatribes on here that I start the weekend with clarity and know for sure, that I'm on the right path.
Even Moses, who came as a vision to the apostles with Elijah, was penalized and not allowed to enter into the promised land.

God is merciful and how could we ever walk a straight line through this journey that Pauls call a race. Our walk is one of daily growth and insight and learning. As God the refiner works with and molds us, these things that still may hinder us are removed. Maybe when he has us where he wants us , He calls us home. Maybe, since we're all slow to learn , we actually stay here a while. some leave sooner. Maybe God saw they completed this life assignment sooner than later. I don't know this to be His way, but thank God that I'm sitting here right now trying to grow and keeping my eye on the prize. sure I'll sin in some way, but I'm sealed friends, we're sealed until the day of redemption. Isn't that a relief? for me it is.
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Old 02-06-2009, 08:53 AM
 
Location: RV Park
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Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
In line with the sin focus threads I am reposting this for your perusal.

One cannot define sin without the law(s) removing subjectivity of the law and interpretations of the law(s) is an object lesson.

So why did Jesus come? If you look up save in the NT the 1st verse you get is this:
Mat 1:21 And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.
It does not say save from hell, save from judgment, merely save from sins.

Now we all know, post Jesus, sin still exists as defined by the law. We have been indoctrinated with the fallacy of the original sin of Adam which we somehow inherit genetically and hence we need a Saviour to change all that. We go through the motions of a sinner's prayer and maybe even experience a re-birth of sorts. We are baptised and are told, we bury Adam and stand up in newness with Christ, yet sin remains. So it looks like we did not drown Adam after all.

The original sin.

Traditionally, this is when Adam partook of the forbidden fruit and I guess most folk see the fruit as literal or partly symbolic. Usually the teaching focuses on disobedience and we take it Adam was made righteous and fell from grace when he was disobedient. Not True

God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of Good & Evil, there was no command as to the tree of life. If you read carefully, God caused all the trees to grow and there was also the two other trees.

We take the original sin to mean "eating of the fruit" when "commanded not to". For me to get my point over, I need to offer alternative words for eat of. I will use dwell on.

The clue is found in what Adam did next. Taking matters into his own hands, he made aprons to hide his nudity and hid away from God - GUILT.

God comes as He always did in the cool of the day looking for Adam. At this part of the story, why would God call out to Adam? He knew what he had done, He is Omniscient, Omnipresent yet calls our "Adam, where are you."

When Adam reveals himself, God does not condemn him, He asks 2 questions:

Who told you, you were naked?
Did you eat of the fruit I commanded you not to eat of?

Disobedience was one of the original sins, however, the 2nd sin was Adam took matters into his own hands. They did something wrong in their eyes and I am guessing the clue lies with Eve.

Let us forgo the serpent as literal for a moment. Eve is alone, she knows either by command from God or Adam she also knew not to eat thereof and in fact not even to touch it. She gives into her desires, and partakes and encourages Adam to do the same. And all of a sudden their eyes are opened. Opened to what? Do you really think that it was their nakedness?

They now became aware of the knowledge of Good and Evil. It was predestined that this would happen. God did not place that tree there w/o a purpose, it was not a temptation. That tree is symbolic of what we all have in us, the ability to learn Good from Evil, Light from Darkness et al.

Do not eat of it = do not dwell on it. It was not satan that made them fall as a 3rd person, it was their carnal flesh, called intuition, called inquisitiveness, all natural traits we are born with.

"Sin is our tutor" (kind of).

When God came looking after the "fall", nothing had changed for God, He still reached out and came into the presence of the Garden. He still desired fellowship. Adam had discovered EGO. He became egocentric, what ever he had done did not change the status quo with God, God was not affected by what they did, He did not suddenly change into an Ogre, sadly that is how we are taught He is. So the focus from Adam's perspective was on self and no longer on God. God knew what had happened and it was part of His plan. Also part of His plan was the tree of life, in fact that tree also exists in us from birth.

We are told He never leaves us nor forsakes us, it rains on the just and unjust, He is no respecter of persons etc. It thus stands to reason that our sin does not move God whatsoever. He still desires relationship and He never once failed on His part.

You find a clue in Genesis 4 when God spoke with Cain.
Gen 4:3 And in the end of days, it happened, Cain brought to Jehovah an offering of the fruit of the ground.
Gen 4:4 And Abel also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat of it. And Jehovah had respect to Abel and to his offering,
The only difference was as I have highlighted. It is not symbolic of the blood sacrifice vs the crops Cain brought. Had Cain brought the first fruits, his offering would have been equal. Symbolic of this is also the regard Abel had of God and the regard Cain had of God. One was 1st on the list and the other was on the list.
Gen 4:5 but He did not have respect to Cain and to his offering. And Cain glowed with anger, and his face fell.
Gen 4:6 And Jehovah said to Cain, Why have you angrily glowed? And why did your face fall?
Notice here the admonition. Same as with Adam, no condemnation, just questions
Gen 4:7a If you do well, shall you not be accepted?

Gen 4:7b And if you do not do well, sin crouches at the door; and its desire is for you, and you shall rule over it.
Here is the crux. God does not say if you do not do well, it is sin.

Let me rephrase the last part:

and its desire is for you (you will become sin focused), and you shall rule over it (you will invent laws to govern it).

Thus sin is ruled by law and law feeds off sin. In effect, the more sin focused you are, the further you walk away from the Father. He never walks away from you.

When Cain was banished after killing Abel, no one was allowed to touch him. If his sin was so horrific, he would have been smitten there and then.

Recall vs. Reconciliation

The Father was able at the 1st occurrence to wipe the slate clean, do a recall and start over again, yet He did not do that. He knew what He was doing and when Adam and Eve exercised their God given right to procreate, delegated to them by God, God never intervened - the plan moved forward.

Now if you cannot see this simple truth, then however you read the rest of the bible will be tainted and that unfortunately is what has happened over the millenia.

FF to Moses and we get the 10 laws. Very simple and really if you think about it at least 6 are built into most constitutions world-wide, even adultery is as least covered in civil laws. That leaves only three, worshiping the true God and the sabbath but even the sabbath, is in a way a day of rest in many countries. That leaves two maybe?

Now I am not sure if you have ever noticed, the way Jesus summarized the Law is nowhere to be found in the 10 anywhere. Makes one think eh?

Look it up Exodus 20 or Deuteronomy 5 then compare it to:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
Nowhere in the 10 commandments does it say we are to love our neighbor as ourselves, in fact even the first one is paraphrased. Strange the gatekeepers of Moses' law never challenged Jesus on this?

Was Jesus trying to tell/show us something?

Most accept this verbatim and never look at the details.

Back to the original sin.

I hope you can see now, even what we assume to be the original sin is questionable. We can only surmise what it actually was, I have heard many ideas - we do not know yet we base a whole theological bias based upon a wrong interpretation. It is not eating of fruit. Yet......

FF to the NT. We see the two trees mentioned again and in fact it comes up also as wheat and tares, sweet and bitter spring, a tongue that both blesses and curses. All of these are taught wrong. Even in one occurrence when a blind man was touched he saw men as trees - I wonder what was the significance to this?

Both trees exist in us simultaneously but neither bring forth opposite fruit. The good tree (ToL) brings forth good fruit and the other (ToKoG&E) bad fruit. If you can see this then maybe you may see where or how sin still exists after your rebirth/baptism.

When we receive our breath of life at birth (His Spirit), that is of the Father and in that is the ToL. We are born with the other tree in us, it is our nature, it is our tutor, it is there for a reason, hence that is why it never goes away.

In Adam's "fallen" state, he had to be removed from the garden to not eat of the ToL. A process had kicked off for mankind to procreate and learn.

Ultimately Jesus would come and the time He came was when primitive technology was there to take the message of the gospel to all nations via the then Roman empire. (another topic)

Man became so egocentric and eventually still in the fallen state wanted to reconcile (in the flesh) to God, his Creator. Enter the law(s). This did not cut it as all that the law(s) did was keep folk in a state of oblations and sacrifice for sins, guilt appeasement. Appease your guilt and you will still sin but now there is a system of dealing with it.
The law and sin feed off each other. They are mutually co-dependent.
This is called religion.

In all religions there is a benevolent god but one that requires some form of punishment and judgment even Christendom.

From day 1, God (the Father) has not changed. Jesus who knew the Father's heart intimately revealed this to us. He would die for this revelation.

I have said many times, sin is no biggie for the Father and still is no biggie. What we do does not affect the Father. Some are of the opinion that we hurt God when we sin - wrong - we only hurt ourselves. It is this hurt that the Father sees and is perhaps concerned with. Just like Adam, He calls out, "Adam where are you?"
Most are in fig leaf aprons of law and works missing the the true relationship with the Father.

We are so indoctrinated that we are not able to enter in in this sinful state and then the Jesus story is used to defer the sin to the cross. It still does not make you feel closer to God knowing this does it?

No!

You are all still managing sin with law and hence remain in the flesh, thus you eat of/dwell upon the wrong tree. The ToL is where the answer lies and it is of that tree we must partake, that brings forth good fruit. We slip and fall and do sometimes eat of the wrong tree, hence the fruit is bad.

The wrong tree has the law we invent to try and do good in the flesh. All the while the Father cries out, "Adam, where are you?" yes Adam, the fallen one, the fleshly one, the hopeless one, the pathetic one, the (.........insert all you were taught of how bad we are) That is the person God calls out to not the ToL in us. The longer you dwell on the wrong tree, the longer you bring forth tares and bitter water. There are many scrips I can quote to confirm this.

It is not an us and them, it is us and us only.

Now what am I trying to say that sin is no biggie? Is it thus OK to sin? No!

If I can sum it up like this:

The closer you move towards the Father (ToL) the further you walk away from sin (ToKoG&E).

This is the message Jesus taught, Father's Love (Unconditional)

Here is a shock. Unconditional Love requires no sacrifice for sin, no animals, neither the death of Jesus. It also requires no hell as punishment.

In this age, it is sufficient, we suffer the consequences of our sins, be it guilt, rejection or even punishment if it is a law of the land you break.

Does that mean then we ignore what Jesus did? No!

We are made to feel so rotten about ourselves that we see ourselves holding the hammer in one hand and a spear in the other hand and in effect that we individually nailed Jesus to the cross and that we pierced His side.

Jesus said:
Joh 8:15 You judge after the flesh, I judge no one.
Joh 8:16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent Me.
How many more scrips are there that show the same? The only ones Jesus judged was the religious. He used their subjective law(s) and turned it against them.

Jesus came to show us to take our focus off sin and the law that judged it. Jesus was not a legalist. Law and Grace do not mix hence today what most espouse is little more than half truths and a half truth is a lie.
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change
The first "Yes but...." thought that comes to your mind, think about it. You are taking a bias you were brought up with to argue against what I have just shared. Of course you are entitled to your POV just as I am.

This is not a "feel-good" doctrine, in fact it is not a doctrine at all. It does however challenge the way we think and what we think we know.

I can hear your thoughts;

What about the flood?
What about Sodom and Gomorrah?
What about the law?
What about death of Jesus on the Cross?
Is everything we know wrong?

This is how I view sin.

Sin focus is always subjective and 37000 "truths" exist and maybe even as many as 6.7Bn - all subjective. Hence:
Luk 6:35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return. And your reward shall be great, and you shall be the sons of the Highest. For He is kind to the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36 Therefore be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven.
Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given to you, good measure pressed down and shaken together and running over, they shall give into your bosom. For with the same measure that you measure, it shall be measured to you again.
The only common thing that is objective is God Loves us Unconditionally. Any "yes but..." make it conditional. It is hard for us to accept Unconditional Love as our love is always conditional carnally speaking.

We have no words to describe this Awesome Love.

Folk mention White and Black. I say both will show off different colors. Hence absolute evil "exposes" goodness while absolute holiness "exposes" evil. Opposites teach us of opposites.

W/O evil how would we discern goodness and visa versa? That is the tree of KoG&E, we are not to eat of it, touch it, dwell on it. There is no life found in self management however religious it seems.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 But the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
We are no longer bound to laws and man-made doctrines
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh;
Rom 8:4 so that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they who are according to the flesh mind the things of flesh, but they who are according to the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
This blue part to me really reveals all those that condemn others sinfulness like homo bashers etc.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace
Carnality leads only to death - that includes judging others based on a religious bias
Rom 8:7 because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be.
Rom 8:8 So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But (IF) you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
I modified the above with IF. Ironic how when we do judge where does that place us Spirit or Flesh?
Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, indeed the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of the One who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One who raised up Christ from the dead shall also make your mortal bodies alive by His Spirit who dwells in you.
This is not about the hereafter - it is about NOW
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die. But if you through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba, Father!
In fact the whole chapter is applicable.

Eat thus of the Tree of Life, the Christ in you.
Great post; exactly what I've tried to say, but not with the same clarity.

There were two trees in the Garden, and we're still feeding from the wrong one.
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Old 02-06-2009, 09:31 AM
 
Location: MI
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Wow. This is a great thread.

The book of Romans is a statement of faith. It is the book I always turn to in times of doubt. I think it explains law and faith and how they work together. It talks about Abraham...how he believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. It was credited to him before circumcision!

I am not so good with words. Thanks for thoughtful posts.
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Old 02-06-2009, 11:38 PM
 
Location: South Africa
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Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Great post; exactly what I've tried to say, but not with the same clarity.

There were two trees in the Garden, and we're still feeding from the wrong one.
Thanks.

BTW have you considered the Tree of Life in Revelation, where the leaves are for the healing of the nations?
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