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God is God, dcashley and we are His creatures. He takes life away and He give life again. He disciplines to teach and to mold us, and it is for our benefit. Sometimes this involves pain. God bless.
These are parables, stories telling us what will happen with the saved and unsaved. But, since you are bent on having the above answered, I'm doing it, so you can get on with your process.
I do appreciate you saving Lover of N. C. from the task of placing our Lord's words regarding sheep and goats in context. Yes, Jesus the Christ declares that goats saw Him hungry and gave Him nothing to eat, saw Him thirsty and "gave me nothing to drink", saw Him a stranger and did not welcome Him, ill-clad and in prison and failed to come to serve Him. This is the foundation for what the Master declares in verse 46 regarding "these" who are goats.
Again I will state that this is a continuation of our Lord's words regarding virgins and servants of the master in the same chapter. It is not "stories of what will happen to the saved and unsaved, or more appropriately, the saved and the lost.
The word kolasis means correction, penalty, punishment and is rooted in kolazo which means to prune and trim for enhancement. This is corrective punishment applying not to the saved and "unsaved" but to our Lord's own flock.
Hi dcashley,
For starters God is not mean. God is fair to all, even the wicked.I will speak on this a bit more, in a minute, if you will please bear with me.
It grieves my heart to no end when I hear, well meaning Christians portray God as this angry, monster that wants to TORTURE people for ever and ever. This is not Biblical!!
That is why we are admonished to study (the Word)to show ourselves approved, a workman that need not be ashamed.
I have stated in several other posts the meaning of hell, for ever, and eternal and believe me that do not mean what Christians have been taught for hundreds of years.
The concept of a burning, fiery hell with screaming, and torture was started by 2 men in 1245. Augustine, and Thomas Agunis, and then further by Dante's Infernal. Shortly after that it became church doctrine and has been MISTAUGHT ever since.
The Bible doesn't teach it
The O.T. doesn't teach it
Jesus didn't teach it
Paul didn't teach it
The early church fathers didn't teach it.
In the O.T. the word hell has ONE meaning and it's a hole in the ground i.e the grave. The English have an old saying they use in the fall, "Well, it's time to put our potatoes in hell."
For those of you who insist Jesus taught it you need to do a thorough study of the word hell in the N.T. and you will find the He was speaking of either the 'grave' or 'the lake of fire' which is NOT hell, (either the grave or your concept of hell),but is the second death.
The Bible teaches the wicked will be put in the fire, consumed and turned to ashes, and lose the chance to be in God's presence ever again. Anything else contradicts the Bible and is a man made doctrine.
I beesch you stop portraying God as a monster that not only takes pleasure in, but enjoys, watching the wicked burn like a piece of bacon for ever and ever. It grieves God to have to do away with ANYONE, but if a person totally turns their back on God they will perish of their own choosing. The wages of sin is DEATH. Not eternal punishment!
Thanks for sharing, Birdy. I hope to study this more. I did once read that some very early Christian drawings show Jesus carrying a goat on His shoulders just as He does a sheep. God bless.
Yes, Shana, our Lord is pictured in the catacombs of the earliest Christians with a goat or kid upon His ample shoulders. The sheep and the goats are both of His flock, with some of them requiring further enhancement by His correction which yields the peaceable fruits of righteousness.
Greek has a word and an expression that means "eternal", but αιωνιον is not one of them. αιωνιον is an age (singular). The punishment in St. Matthew 25, comes from the word κολαζω which means to prune and is used in a disciplinary sense and not a penal one. μωρια would be used in a penal (vengeance) sense, not kolasis which means correction and is rooted in kolazo leading to the same result: purging and pruning.
New Thayers Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament defines "kolasis" as "CORRECTION, punishment, penalty"
The Latin Vulgate translated αιωνιον as "aeternus" from which we get the English words eternal and eternity. The KJV translators, instead of going back to the Greek, went to the Latin Vulgate and translated "aeternus". Translating that as "eternal" is based on Latin theology (Roman Catholicism). It was absolutely essential to Augustinian theology with its blightening emphasis on the doctrine of predestinarianism to mistranslate the Greek adjective αιωνιον, and put on it a meaning which the Greek will not for a moment allow in its respective applications to salvation and judgment.
The Greek word for "everlasting" is αιδιοις.
Remember, "eternal" means without beginning or end. Only God is eternal. Everlasting means without end. αιωνιον means age, but αιδιοις (plural) means "everlasting" or perpetual. The other way of saying "everlasting" is εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων. One is an adjective that means "everlasting", the other is a noun.
Scripture talks about everlasting life, but when it's talking about "aionian" life, that's not it. This passage is talking about age-lasting life and age-lasting punishment (chastisement).
Sheep & Goats
Numbers 18:17 "But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD."
Goats are clean animals. If you look in the OT, consistently it makes statements such as the one in Exodus 12:5: "Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:"
The lamb for the sacrifice could come from sheep or goats. Goats are clean. If goats are a clean animal that doesn't need redeeming throughout Scripture, why would He suddenly change His mind that they are unclean in this one instance?
Even in the original language, there are minor differences between serious scholars, but why add to the confusion with mis-translating words and making them say something that the Greek will not at all accept? αιωνιον cannot by any sane reason (other than general concensus based on Catholicism) be translated as "eternal". Unless the Holy Spirit made a mistake when the writers were told what to write, this passage is not referring to eternal life or everlasting life. We know it's not referring to eternal life; only God is eternal.
Jesus Christ draws distinction between sheep and goats. Sheep and goats are both clean animals. The sheep are righteous and the goats aren't, but they are both groups of believers. Those on the right hand go to age-lasting reward, those on the left to age-lasting chastisement.
Can't be that mean....I assume you are not a Christian and you are alive and well, can see, can walk, have both arms, you had a great meal, you can think, breathe, have shelter over your head, live in the best country in the world. I would say overall that God is good to you.
Can't be that mean....I assume you are not a Christian and yet you are alive and well, can see, can walk, have both arms, you had a great meal, you can think, breathe, have shelter over your head, live in the best country in the world. I would say overall that God is good to you.
Fundie,
That kind of explanation does not help anyone. Would you please be so kind as to read my post above yours? Thx.
Fundie,
That kind of explanation does not help anyone. Would you please be so kind as to read my post above yours? Thx.
I beg to differ.....I am stating something that is real because it has been revealed. Your post is based on opinion using one scripture in which you say, anything that contradicts that verse is a man made doctrine when there are tons of scripture that contradicts your opinion.
God is a good God, God is love and He demonstrates it everyday by that we are ALL still here.
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 02-11-2009 at 08:24 AM..
The Bible teaches the wicked will be put in the fire, consumed and turned to ashes, and lose the chance to be in God's presence ever again. Anything else contradicts the Bible and is a man made doctrine.
I beesch you stop portraying God as a monster that not only takes pleasure in, but enjoys, watching the wicked burn like a piece of bacon for ever and ever. It grieves God to have to do away with ANYONE, but if a person totally turns their back on God they will perish of their own choosing. The wages of sin is DEATH. Not eternal punishment!
Matey: there is no such thing as losing your chances in our Father's realm. In fact there is no chance involved whatsoever! What we do know is that fire in the Scripture is what God is (His essence). The Lake of God is the same as the God who is consumming fire and the consummation of all.
"From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists, and in Him everything ends."
"Source, Guide and Goal of all that is, to whom be glory forever."
I beg to differ.....I am stating something that is real because it has been revealed. Your post is based on opinion using one scripture in which you say, anything that contradicts that verse is a man made doctrine when there are tons of scripture that contradicts your opinion.
God is a good God, God is love and He demonstrates it everyday because we are ALL still here.
Let me reprashe my remark. That kind of explanation doesn't help people who DON'T UNDERSTAND God and our experiences with Him. Your kind of explanation only 'speaks' to believers. We need to help unbelievers see God in His true light!!
And if you would rightly divide the ENTRIE Bible you would see those Scriptures you claim go against what I said actually PROVE what I said!!
In my other posts I have use many Scriptures.
If it doesn't bother you to portray God as a monster...then go for it!! Have at it!!
Last edited by mshipmate; 02-11-2009 at 08:35 AM..
One way to look at is this:
(It's a parable. We aren't dogs in the eye's of God - but much more.)
Let's say you have a dog and you love your dog.
(OK, the dog could belong to anyone, so we'll go with that.)
One day your dog (anyone's dog) breaks out of the yard and runs away.
He gets lost and keeps moving on, but soon he's cut up from skirmishes.
His ribs show from lack of food; he's weak and unsteady on his feet.
Ticks attach themselves from the brush, and lime disease (or whatever a dog might get from a tick) attacks his body from within.
The doggy wanders out into the street.
A passing car knocks him down - breaking one of his legs and two of his ribs.
During this time, the dog's owner has been searching for his beloved for legged friend - but to no avail.
It doesn't look good for the dog; he's in a real bad state.
Is the dog's owner a mean person?
If the owner knew about all this, would it make him happy?
OR...
...Would he go and seek to rescue the dog?
Last edited by Richio; 02-11-2009 at 08:50 AM..
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