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Old 02-07-2009, 01:11 PM
 
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Sin in 1 John 2:1?

John taught:

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Question: What was in John’s mind when he used the word sin? Was he talking about sins of ignorance or willful sin - or both?

Answer: As a Jewish man trained in the Scriptures we can be certain John understood that sins of ignorance could be forgiven and that presumptuous (willful) sin was not forgiven. John was taught from childhood that:

a. Sins of ignorance condemn to death (Lev 5:17*) and required atonement (Num 15:28*)

b. Presumptuous (willful) sin was not forgiven (Num 15:30*)

c. The Day of Atonement covered only sins of ignorance. (Heb 9:7*)

( * = complete verse quoted below )


In His first epistle John said that “…if any man sin we have an advocate…” At the same time John also taught that the child of God did not *commit* sin:

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;

If the sin in 1John 2:1 is the same type of sin as 3:9 - John was would be contradicting himself because in verse 2:1 John says to the children of God “…if any man sin we have an advocate…” Yet in verse 3:9 John says “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin.”

John is not contradicting himself – in 2:1 he is referring to sins of ignorance (which required atonement) and presumptuous (willful) sin in verse 3:9. John distinguished between unintentional sin in verse 2:1 and willful sin in verse 3:9 by using the word “commit”. To “commit” sin implies knowledge and intent.


* In verse 3:9 John used the word “commit”. “…doth not commit sin.”

* In verse 2:1 John did not use the word commit “…if any man sin we have an advocate…”


The child of God may occasionally sin through ignorance or deception - which does not involve rebellion to Gods commandments. These sins can be forgiven by the blood of Christ just as an Israelite’s sin of ignorance was forgiven by the blood atonement.

On the other hand, the one who is born of God does not “commit” sin. To sin willfully involves rebellion – it is presumptuous sin and cannot be forgiven. There was no sacrifice for willful sin under either the Old Covenant or the New.

Hebrews 10:26* explicitly states that there is no sacrifice for willful sin for those who have received the knowledge of the truth. Why is there no mercy for one who has been born of God and then rebels against God’s law and sins willfully?

Even under the old Covenant the one who” despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:” They were immediately stoned to death.

Under the New Covenant we have direct communication with Jesus through the indwelling Holy Spirit. If there was no mercy for the willful sinner who had only the law and the priests to guide them – how much greater punishment is deserved for those who sin directly against the Holy Spirit?

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Under the New Covenant a person who rebels against God by sinning willfully does the following:

1. He “hath trodden under foot the Son of God,”

2. He “hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing,”

3. He “hath done despite [blasphemed] unto the Spirit of grace? “


For one who is born of God to sin willfully is to show contempt and scorn for Jesus and to reject the blood covenant by which he was counted holy as a child of God. It is an act of unspeakable evil to virtually spit in the face of the Son of God by rejecting his Lordship and refusing to obey.

The child of God who rebels by sinning willfully hath “done despite” to the Holy Spirit. It is an unpardonable insult to the indwelling Spirit of God and cannot be forgiven. It is blasphemy!

In the Old Testament to sin presumptuously was to blaspheme God.

Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

In the Numbers text above where it says that presumptuous sin is to reproach the Lord, the Hebrew word for reproacheth is:

1442 gadaph, a primitive root; to hack (with words), i.e. revile:
KJV-- BLASPHEME, reproach.

Every other time this word is used, the KJV translates it as BLASPHEMED or BLASPHEMETH.

For example: Ezek 20:27
" Therefore, son of man, speak unto the house of Israel, and say unto
them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Yet in this your fathers have
BLASPHEMED (1442) in that they have committed a trespass
against me.

As you can see, they "committed a trespass" and "blasphemed” the Lord.

*In the OT to sin presumptuously (willfully) is to blaspheme the Lord God.

* In the NT, to sin willfully (presumptuously) is to blaspheme the indwelling Spirit of Grace.


Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men:
but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

God will forgive those who repent and are baptized all manner of past sin and blasphemy and give them the gift of the Holy Spirit. But for the child of God who hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace there is no forgiveness for willful sin. It is blasphemy!

The term "hath done despite” [blaspheme] is from the Greek:

2662 katapateo-

1) to tread down, to trample underfoot, to trample on
2) metaphorically, to treat with rudeness and insult,
to spurn, to treat with insulting neglect

If one who is born of God has truly repented of committing sin (made a covenant with God to cease from sin completely and forever) and then deliberately commits sin he has despised the Holy Spirit, just as the Israelites despised the Law of God. It is blasphemy!

The Pe****ta Text (Aramaic) of the New Testament confirms this fact by translating Hebrews 10:29 in this way:

"How much more punishment do you think he will receive who has
trodden underfoot the Son of God and has considered the blood of
His covenant through which he had been sanctified as ordinary blood
and has BLASPHEMED the Spirit of Grace."
Holy Bible from Ancient Eastern Manuscripts - Lamsa

KJ Version "...done despite unto the Spirit of Grace"
Aramaic Text "...blasphemed the Spirit of Grace”

Only the one "born of God” is able to blaspheme the Spirit who "writes the law on their hearts." If he does, there remains only "a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."


HK


VERSE LIST:

* Lev 5:17 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.


*Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.


*Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

*Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.


*Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

*Heb 10:26-7 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

*Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:


*Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
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Old 02-07-2009, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 3,790,923 times
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Let's say your interpretation of both scriptures is correct. It's talking about just one willful sin, not a continuation of living in sin.

One says:

1 John 3:9... Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The other:

Hebrews 10:26... For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

So basically, the Word of God just contradicted itself.
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Old 02-07-2009, 07:43 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,573,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
Let's say your interpretation of both scriptures is correct. It's talking about just one willful sin, not a continuation of living in sin.

One says:

1 John 3:9... Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The other:

Hebrews 10:26... For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

So basically, the Word of God just contradicted itself.


If one who is born of God sins willfully he is rejected and is no longer a child of God.

That is if a child of God commit sin he is no longer a child of God - one cannot commit sin and remain a child of God.


This agrees precisely with God's statement in Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

HK
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Old 02-07-2009, 09:51 PM
 
30 posts, read 101,865 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
Let's say your interpretation of both scriptures is correct. It's talking about just one willful sin, not a continuation of living in sin.

One says:

1 John 3:9... Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The other:

Hebrews 10:26... For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

So basically, the Word of God just contradicted itself.
No contradiction, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, because his seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin, because if we/he sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
See he knows his fate if he sins willfully, he is dead. Do not be deceived.

One thing God has not taken nor ever will take from man is his freewill. We are free to obey or not to obey all the days of our life. The true child of God knows he must obey, but he like Jesus does it willingly, it is not grievous, but a joy, peace and happiness. To the carnally minded to even think of having to obey and keep the Law (10C) makes their skin crawl, they cringe at the thought, they revile the messenger, they cannot even think of being subject to the Law of God.

So contradiction, only if one is blind, but to the truly repentant soul, the overcomer, it is crystal clear, Christ only dies once for sins past.

Now the really good news.. you still have hope, why not repent, confess your sin and become obedient to God, keep his commandments, you can do it by the power of his spirit, really you can truly overcome and have right to the tree of life.
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Old 02-07-2009, 10:07 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,812,679 times
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The letter of Paul to the Corinthians says to me that these believers who were described as babes in Christ and acting like mere men because of jealousy and strife, were still believers. They did not stop becoming children of God. Paul refers to them as brethren. Believers may stumble and fall, yes and even sin, and yet we are still God's children. Our goal, mindset is different in that we are seeking to live for God, and we want to please Him but because we are still in this fleshly body, we are in a battle. We are taught to confess to one another so that we may be healed. (James 5) Even the "wicked" one who had his father's wife was to be delivered to satan so that his spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord. There was still hope for him although fellowship was withdrawn from him and the wicked man was to be removed from them. Evidently God still loved the wicked man.

"The expression, he cannot sin" simply means he cannot sit habitually, deliberately, easily, and maliciously as Cain did out of hatred of goodness. The divine nature of man, of course, cannot sin, but while John speaks of the divine nature in this abstract way, he does not, on the other hand ignore the existence of the sinful nature in the believer, who is still in a mortal corruptible body and living in a corrupt world. Consequently in 1 Jon 1:8 we find him saying "If we say that we have not sin (meaning the sin nature occasionally manifesting its ugly head) we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.." *(Hebrew/Greek Key Word Study)


God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-07-2009 at 10:37 PM..
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:59 AM
 
381 posts, read 664,992 times
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Default i think I see the problem now

harold, there it was and it hit me.

your doctrine allows this sin of ignorance. you permit this and of course disallow the willful sins.

therein lies the problem. you've neatly tucked your doctrine into

class A felony sin
and
class B misdemeanor sin.

my words but same point.


I agree with this. If I gave into temptation and sinned with what i know, I would have a awful mess on my hands. I would be separated by God and as David saw suffer a heep of torment.

I could also get that forgiveness promised me.


we should strive to be holy and live as God called to be. how else could he use us?


yep, I see now why there has been this debate. you have ranked sin

and I do not rank sin.

for me it is the whole law. one part or all , name your sin, and you're one and done.

I need Jesus because of this...

you've cleared it up. thanks.
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Old 02-08-2009, 06:53 AM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 3,790,923 times
Reputation: 549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
If one who is born of God sins willfully he is rejected and is no longer a child of God.

That is if a child of God commit sin he is no longer a child of God - one cannot commit sin and remain a child of God.

HK
Quote:
Originally Posted by grammjr View Post
No contradiction, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, because his seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin, because if we/he sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
See he knows his fate if he sins willfully, he is dead. Do not be deceived.

One thing God has not taken nor ever will take from man is his freewill. We are free to obey or not to obey all the days of our life. The true child of God knows he must obey, but he like Jesus does it willingly, it is not grievous, but a joy, peace and happiness. To the carnally minded to even think of having to obey and keep the Law (10C) makes their skin crawl, they cringe at the thought, they revile the messenger, they cannot even think of being subject to the Law of God.
Ok, thank you. Now I see what you were saying. I still may not agree with you, but it's clearer now as to what you believe.

Last edited by mzjamiedawn; 02-08-2009 at 07:14 AM..
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Old 02-08-2009, 07:17 AM
 
30 posts, read 101,865 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave737driver View Post
harold, there it was and it hit me.

your doctrine allows this sin of ignorance. you permit this and of course disallow the willful sins.

therein lies the problem. you've neatly tucked your doctrine into

class A felony sin
and
class B misdemeanor sin.

my words but same point.


I agree with this. If I gave into temptation and sinned with what i know, I would have a awful mess on my hands. I would be separated by God and as David saw suffer a heep of torment.

I could also get that forgiveness promised me.


we should strive to be holy and live as God called to be. how else could he use us?


yep, I see now why there has been this debate. you have ranked sin

and I do not rank sin.

for me it is the whole law. one part or all , name your sin, and you're one and done.

I need Jesus because of this...

you've cleared it up. thanks.
Yes we need the sacrifice of Christ for forgiveness of our sins past - that is Bible - and we need the sacrifice of Christ for forgiveness of our sins of ignorance as we move forward.
There is a difference of sin, sins unto death and sins not unto death, it is very important to know the difference, IF anyone teaches that a child of God can willfully sin and find forgiveness, and a child of God hears this and sins, not only will he die, but the one who taught that will die also because the blood of the transgressor will be on his head.
So I highly suggest you start ranking sin as to sins of ignorance (which means it was unintentional - the one did not realize it was sin) and willful sin ( when temptation comes and you succumb to the temptation - even once ) The willful sin issue can only be applied to a true child of God, it does not apply to those who think they are children of God just because they said a prayer or has some emotional experience and confess Jesus.
There are 2 ways to guarantee death-
Never repent and die in your sins - guaranteed death
Repent, come to the knowledge of the truth and willfully sin - guaranteed death
Now a possibility of death - (I am not even sure this can apply, because anyone that has the knowledge of the truth would never preach so) -
Repentant soul that would preach forgiveness for willful to a child of God and that child would commit sin - the preacher would die.

So few (few be that enter in) really repent and come to the knowledge of the truth and those that do will always preach that the soul that sinneth shall surely die. They will understand that willful sin is not forgivable. They will have overcome sin and walk a sin free life, just as their master walked a sin free life. Would Christ have found forgiveness has he sinned? NO! Just as he would not have found forgiveness so we when we have truly come to Christ and the knowledge of the truth and tasted of the freedom from sin by the overcoming power of the Holy Spirit if we sin willful will not find forgiveness. This is really not hard to understand, when you know it is sin and you have experienced the power to overcome and you do it anyway that is nothing but willful.
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Old 02-08-2009, 07:21 AM
 
381 posts, read 664,992 times
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grammjr,

it would apprear to me that you deny Grace. Is that correct?

you can't hang HKs "Class A felony, Class B misdemeanor doctrine on an adverb "willfully"

sin is sin. that is what the debate is all about.

HK allows sins of ignorance. Under the "criminal doctrine"

we're all doomed , because only one did not sin.
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Old 02-08-2009, 07:23 AM
 
30 posts, read 101,865 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn View Post
Ok, thank you. Now I see what you were saying. I still may not agree with you, but it's clearer now as to what you believe.
Not me you do not agree with, it is the Bible you do not agree with.
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