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Where does it say that His blood was shed for the sins of the world?
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Not one drop of His blood was wasted on those who would never believe!
Jesus died for all people Preterist. God did not deliberately create a group of people to burn in an eternal hell or to be lost for all of eternity without hope of salvation and deliberately create a different group to be saved.
Colossians 1:
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18He is also head of )the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20andthrough Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
1 Timothy 2
5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne (or to be borne) at the proper time (or in its own times)
1 John 4
14 And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world…
1 John 2
“and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 Timothy 4
10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers
Salvation is for all, every individual person. Isn't that good news? God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-13-2009 at 08:18 PM..
Deb in Va: I think you are completely misreading most of those who believe in predestination and election. I personally know of none who is arrogant. Arrogance could only come from a belief that there was something good in us that commended us to God--that caused Him to look upon us with favor. Nothing could be further from the truth!
The elect have no basis for arrogance but every justification for humility. I often ask myself, "why me?" It is simply because God chose me and nothing more. We are all headed toward hell the moment we take our first breath because we all enter this world in Adam and spiritually stillborn. Because God has decreed to elect only some of those already heading toward a just hell does not make the one chosen arrogant!
Again, I know of no proponent of the biblical teaching of predestination who walks around patting himself on the back and feeling superior to others. Such a knowledge drives me to my knees in total gratitude and humility. We do not know why God chooses to set His love upon some and not on others, but the fact remains, that He has. If we consider His holy attributes and character, we rest in the fact that everything He does is just and good and right. It is there that I must leave those who never come to the saving knowledge of Christ.
Where does it say that His blood was shed for the sins of the world? John 3:16? That is not what is taught there. God so loved the world extensively but not all-inclusively of all individuals. He so loved the world of men or mankind in general that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believed in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. It was those whom He elected and called--his sheep--for whom He died. He laid down His life for His sheep (John 10:15). Not one drop of His blood was wasted on those who would never believe! It is HE and no one else, not even ourselves, who makes of us "children of God . . . who were born, NOT of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but OF GOD" (John 1:12).
A. W. Tozer wrote in The Knowledge of the Holy that "all of God does all that God does." In other words, He does not demonstrate His grace and mercy apart from His wrath and righteous indignation against sin. If we chose to consider His grace and mercy apart from His wrath and justice, we make of Him something He is not. We demand that He demonstrate His mercy and grace to all despite the fact that He has not declared that He would do so! His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways. God is simply too "other" from us in order for us to completely understand Him. Our only recourse is to take Him at His Word and let go--in spite of how unreasonable or unjust His ways may appear.
When brought to a knowledge of his lowly nature as a sinful man before a holy God, Job admitted that he had spoken what he did not understand--things that were too wonderful for him to know. Having seen himself as God saw him, he abhored himself and repented in dust and ashes. That is the attitude of those who have come to grips with God's predestination. In our humanity and attendant sinfulness, we abhor ourselves and repent before His holy nature. Any worth we find within ourselves is of Him and of Him alone. For the Calvinist, there is no place for boasting and no place for arrogance.
Why me? I don't know, but I will spend the rest of my life on this earth and all of eternity praising Him Who set His love upon me while I was still a vile, unrepentant sinner. It is not arrogance but humility that drives the Calvinist to his knees in total agreement with Isaiah who called out "woe is me, for I am undone!"
READ Romans 9!
Preterist
Preterist, you didn't answer my question about family members of the elect. I'm assuming you believe you are one of the elect, right? Do you also believe that your spouse, children and parents are part of the elect as well? Or do you believe that a loving and merciful God would place you (one of the elect) in a family that includes those who are not part of the elect?
Why would God send his Son to earth to be tortured and ripped to shreds only to save an elect few? If salvation is not available to everyone, it isn't available to anyone.
What a great topic. I have read some of these posts and today as I was listening to the Pastor's Perspective on KWAVE here in So Calif while driving home from work, a caller asked the same question.
The Pastor said that some people have taken on the Calvinist position in that the elect is basically God's chosen. Then he said that there is the bible's position. According to the Calvinist position, the elect are people who may not even want to be part of this group but because of God own electing them into this saved group, those persons are technically still saved even though they may not want to be.
Also, He made a very interesting point in showing how the Calivinist position is a weak one to hold in that if the elect of God are only those persons chosen by God, then why does God offer Grace for all if Only the elect are saved by Grace? What happens to all of us having free will to accept it? Why is there a need for a Savior, who died for everyone's sins, if God already has chosen a fortunate few to be in this elected group of saved souls? These are questions that we really need think and pray about on this topic.
In the book of Revelation, its speaks of a time that is so bad that for the Elects sake the days of destruction shall be shortened.
I've heard that the Elect are one's that wield the powers of God, and are unspotted from the world, that they are righteous and holy people that live and keep the teachings of Christ.
THese times are also so terrible that even the Elect are tempted to fall.
Originally Posted by freedom Why does a loving all powerful God not pick them all? Seems an awful waste of a spirit.
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
Because that would defeat the purpose. God doesn't want robots or walking lemmings because if He did He could have made it so. He wants a family to love and that loves Him, that will receive His gift and call it the body of Christ. It's His preordained plan and All of it gives Him the glory. Who am I to question it?
How is it defeating his purpose? Whether he picks 1 billion or 6 billion what`s the difference? Aren`t the 1 billion robots then? A robot is a robot whether you have 100 robots or billions of robots. I agree with freedom. If you believe this to be true, why not pick everyone?
Jesus died for all people Preterist. God did not deliberately create a group of people to burn in an eternal hell or to be lost for all of eternity without hope of salvation and deliberately create a different group to be saved.
Quote:
Salvation is for all, every individual person. Isn't that good news? God bless.
Yes shana that is the gospel or the good news. Most people who post on here believe that God created billions of people knowing that eventually the overwhelming majority would be tormented day and night forever in some fabled pit of fire, and he would be totally seperated from his creation. That really sounds like good news to me.
Here is the gospel of Jesus Christ..or good news...according to the church: God loses almost all of his creation to satan..winner satan..loser God. That might sound like good news to the church but not to me.
I am sorry,...did I miss something? I am wondering why you know you are one of the chosen? In your own words can you explain this to me? I know...I should reread Romans 9...but until then, will you explain?
sherryturner: This is basically the same question as "how do you know you are saved?" If we know we are saved, then we know we are elect.
I believe this entire issue gets bogged down in emotionalism and in man's attempt to make God behave as a man. We know that God is love--but do we know that unfathomable depths of that love? I don't think so. We know that God is just and right and good and that everything He does is just and right and good. But do we know what those things mean from God's perspective? Again, I don't think so. God is completely "other" than we are--He is so "other" than we, that no comparison can truly be made. Even being made in His image does not render us anywhere even near close enough to be in His realm.
To say that God is far above us in all ways is totally inadequate for again we are making an impossible comparison. He is God and we are not! We will never know as He knows. We will never love as He loves. We will never understand as He understands. Until we accept these things and stop assuming that we understand His mercy and His love, we will fight against His ways and His thoughts. To say that "a loving, merciful God would not . . . " is to presume that we fully understand His love and His mercy.
That is the point of Romans 9. There was a time, sherryturner, when I would read Romans 8, skip Romans 9, and pick up again in Romans 10. Why? I did not like what Romans 9 was clearly saying. MY God would never do such a thing. MY God of mercy and love would not create some vessels of honor and others vessels of wrath. MY God of mercy and love would not find fault with those who have no choice but to do what their natures dictate. That's not fair! But the inspired words of Paul haunted me, and I found myself among those he chastised--"Who are YOU, O man, to talk back to God?" I am a mere speck on the earth and so much less a speck in relationship to all of the universes that I am nearly nonexistent (except to the God who gives me value). God is above, around, throughout and within all of it. With only the words of "mouth," He spoke it all into being. Can we even fathom that expanse of God's creation? Can we count the stars? Yet I am humbled and I tremble when I read Genesis 1:16b--"He made the stars also." He made the stars also! As though it were nothing to Him. Do I still dare to shake my less than microscopic fist in His face and question His ways?
We must reconcile all proof texts we use to support man's free will and to destroy the doctrines of election and predestination with Romans 9. Scriptures does not contradict itself. The debate does not rest upon who can come up with more verses than his opponent. That approach has been worked to death. We must see them all in light of each other.
I have presented Romans 9 to others here, but they do not deal with it. They come back with Scriptures that they believe teach otherwise. What are they saying then? That Scripture contradicts Scripture? Do we suppose that if we find enough passages that seem to contradict Romans 9 that the truths taught there will be negated? That can never be.
He is the potter; we are the clay. Let us lay aside our puny understandings about His love and His mercy, and humble ourselves before Him. Let God be true but every man a liar (Romans 3:4).
Thanks for your willingness to study God's Word. I appreciate it more than you know.
Elect is an English word that has been used to translate the original Hebrew and Greek words of The Bible which describe those who have been, or will be, elected, or chosen by God for a purpose: to become the "first fruits" of salvation. They will be resurrected, or transformed if alive that day, into immortal spirit beings at The Return Of Jesus Christ. They will then reign with Him for the 1,000 years (the "Millennium"), after which the resurrection of the rest of humanity will occur (Revelation 20:4-6).
I have presented Romans 9 to others here, but they do not deal with it. They come back with Scriptures that they believe teach otherwise. What are they saying then? That Scripture contradicts Scripture? Do we suppose that if we find enough passages that seem to contradict Romans 9 that the truths taught there will be negated? That can never be.
He is the potter; we are the clay. Let us lay aside our puny understandings about His love and His mercy, and humble ourselves before Him. Let God be true but every man a liar (Romans 3:4).
Hi Preterist, there is no contradiction. The same vessels of wrath, are people that Jesus also died for. It was His good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself, including the vessels of wrath. God loves them also even though they are prepared for destruction. God destroys and restores. The elect are the firstfruits and have a special calling but the love of God is for all men and He desires all men.
Psalm 90:3 “You turn man to dust /destruction, and dost say, Return O children of men.."
Psalm :8-10 The Lord is gracious and merciful; slow to anger and great in lovingkindness. The Lord is good to all, and His mercies are over all His works. All Thy works shall give thanks to Thee, O Lord, and Thy godly ones shall bless Thee..."
God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 02-14-2009 at 05:47 PM..
Yes shana that is the gospel or the good news. Most people who post on here believe that God created billions of people knowing that eventually the overwhelming majority would be tormented day and night forever in some fabled pit of fire, and he would be totally seperated from his creation. That really sounds like good news to me.
Here is the gospel of Jesus Christ..or good news...according to the church: God loses almost all of his creation to satan..winner satan..loser God. That might sound like good news to the church but not to me.
...Satan gets tossed into the lake of fire.
Winner... ________________________GOD!!!
As for the people.... That's what free will is about.
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