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Go direct and ask, and He will give to you abundantly. If our ears are not developed to hear then scripture is clearly there to show the difference of a salvaged person in comparison to a divine person.
godspeed,
freedom
Well, I don't have a problem with "self study", BUT even the Apostle Paul had teachers. Before AND after his conversion. After the "Jesus experience" Paul went away for some odd 4 years to study.
We all need teachers, it's biblical. Learning it all on your own is not what I see in scripture...if anything I think it sets one up for some serious mistakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk
I did, and it was very interesting. I agree with zonababe...please do the Google search...
Bud
You mean the fact that Harry's been spreading this heresy for well over 15 years and debating folks and whatnot?
Or did you just mean the Seventh Day Adventist doctrine he seems to embrace, even though I'm pretty sure they don't embrace him.
Or did you mean that he is a modern Arian? You know, he doesn't believe Jesus was "God" but "a god". You mean Harold the one who denies the trinity?
Yea, that's Harry alright.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I seldom will engage in speculation about the decisions of God . . . but in my short time here at CD . . . I have formed fairly strong suspicions about some who might be among the "Depart from me . . ." crowd. Misunderstanding and rejecting the saving grace of Jesus's "LOVE God and LOVE each other" commands in favor of OT proscriptions seems fairly risky, IMO.
Here here! Well said!
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham
Those of us who are born-again, i.e. living free from all willful sin, are very vulnerable like the disciples were before the resurrection. At this point, we are foolish virgins; we are without oil for our lamps. Not until we have been to the upper room will we have all the overcoming power of the Holy Ghost; this is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Regrettably, many today think that have the real Holy Spirit, but they have been deceived.
Once Peter had been to the upper room on the day of Pentecost, then he was a real soldier of the cross; he had Holy Ghost power over the enemy, which includes all sin.
Uh boy...
And I bet you can spot the real believers "just like that" too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp
That is an important question - What does it mean to be "Saved"? Does it mean "receive eternal life"? I will open a new thread with that topic.
HK
Harold, you have been online for over a decade trying to win converts to your twisted theology. Lets at leat call things as they are and acknowledge you are here to prostelitize and not to learn and share with the rest of us?
Can we at least be that honest? I mean, you don't want to "sin" and lie now would you?
You said..."My working definition of true repentance is this: A covenant with God to cease from all know sin completely and forever - even if it were to cost me my life to obey. And at the same time knowing that if I do repent, become a child of God (a righteous man) and turn back to willful sin I will be lost forever."
But God said...
James 5...
19My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back,
20remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
Thanks for bringing this verse up - if you read closely you will see the word "error" and the idea of "wandering from the truth". KJV "err from the truth"
Error is not willful sin and the concept of wandering from the truth reflects not deliberate rebellion but misunderstanding or confusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk So then, you are basically saying James lied, (in James 5:15...where it says he who has committed sin will be forgiven...) ? Or, are you saying this scripture actually only applies to the unsaved, that it doesn't pertain to those "born of God" (children of God)? (I don't buy that)
It speaks of "committing" sin, which you say is the "key" word translated from the original text that means "willful" sin.
Bud
Hey Bud,
If you have the inclination or time, look up all the verses regarding Born of God, or Born of the Spirit and i think you will see that there is a difference between a self professed Christian and one that is Born of God.
godspeed,
freedom
***********************************
Bud, no reasonable man would think James lied or even accuse someone of suggesting that.
If you remember that not all who believe are born of God then you can understand the verse. The purpose of the church is to bring up the spiritual babes who believe so they may mature, repent of sin and become the children of God.
Jam 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Some believers are sick by nature and some because God is disciplining them for sins they have committed. This verse cannot be speaking of those who are born of God because:
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
And:
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk So then, you are basically saying James lied, (in James 5:15...where it says he who has committed sin will be forgiven...) ? Or, are you saying this scripture actually only applies to the unsaved, that it doesn't pertain to those "born of God" (children of God)? (I don't buy that)
It speaks of "committing" sin, which you say is the "key" word translated from the original text that means "willful" sin.
Bud
Hey Bud,
If you have the inclination or time, look up all the verses regarding Born of God, or Born of the Spirit and i think you will see that there is a difference between a self professed Christian and one that is Born of God.
godspeed,
freedom
***********************************
Bud, no reasonable man would think James lied or even accuse someone of suggesting that.
If you remember that not all who believe are born of God then you can understand the verse. The purpose of the church is to bring up the spiritual babes who believe so they may mature, repent of sin and become the children of God.
Jam 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Some believers are sick by nature and some because God is disciplining them for sins they have committed. This verse cannot be speaking of those who are born of God because:
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
And:
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
HK
Lies, from the father of lies.
You quote 1 John 3:9, but seem to leave out 3:5 and the a few key verses that would upset your premise.
1Jo 3:5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.
Hmm...if he takes away our sins, that gives verse 9 a whole new meaning!
1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
You don't seem to understand, once you are cleansed you are cleansed. God sees your sin no longer - so yes, "he cannot go on sinning".
I know you have no interest in seeing this, but at least someon else reading this will not be mislead by your heretical teachings.
Just a few verses down, it gets real clear:
1Jo 3:21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God
1Jo 3:22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.
1Jo 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
1Jo 3:24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
How about that! I don't see "stop sinning" as a conditional command before salvation. I see "believe in the name of his son".
You quote 1 John 3:9, but seem to leave out 3:5 and the a few key verses that would upset your premise.
1Jo 3:5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.
Hmm...if he takes away our sins, that gives verse 9 a whole new meaning!
1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
You don't seem to understand, once you are cleansed you are cleansed. God sees your sin no longer - so yes, "he cannot go on sinning".
I know you have no interest in seeing this, but at least someon else reading this will not be mislead by your heretical teachings.
Just a few verses down, it gets real clear:
1Jo 3:21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God
1Jo 3:22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.
1Jo 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
1Jo 3:24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
How about that! I don't see "stop sinning" as a conditional command before salvation. I see "believe in the name of his son".
You know you can disagree with someone without saying they are Satan.
That said, What does it mean to believe in Jesus?
Does it mean to not live His teachings?
Does it mean that sin is good?
Does it mean that we are doomed to be sinners and that Jesus hides our sins?
If this is so, then why do professed Christians care if someone commits adultry, gets drunk, murders, rapes, steals?
If Jesus hides all these sins, why is there a word such as hypocrisy?
Washed in the blood, its all good churchianity is what i'm hearing from you JV.
That is true - but what does "believeth mean? Do those who do not obey Jesus qualify to be among those who believeth and receive eternal life?
The answer is No!
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. ASV
HK
Note:
The King James translates John 3:36 as:
John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that
**believeth not** the Son shall not see life; (KJV)
I agree with you, when it comes to the 2nd word, believeth in THAT verse. However, we weren't talking about that verse...in 1 John 5:1, the word believeth means just that, believe. From 4100...to have faith, believe, commit, put in trust with.
Thanks for bringing this verse up - if you read closely you will see the word "error" and the idea of "wandering from the truth". KJV "err from the truth"
Error is not willful sin and the concept of wandering from the truth reflects not deliberate rebellion but misunderstanding or confusion.
HK
I'm not even sure which version I used, I messed up somehow, because I usually use KJV.
Again, Harold, that is your opinion when it concerns the words err and error. You seem to decide for yourself which verses deal with willful sin and sins of ignorance. Seems to me if someone errs from the truth so much so, that he has to be converted back and then his soul was saved from death... then that error was a pretty grave error.
You know you can disagree with someone without saying they are Satan.
I agree - but there are cases where lies from the father of lies are just that. Jesus called Peter Satan at one time when he tried to "thawrt" the plan of salvation - remember?
There is a time when you DO need to call a spade a spade. Heresy is one of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom
That said, What does it mean to believe in Jesus?
Does it mean to not live His teachings?
Does it mean that sin is good?
Does it mean that we are doomed to be sinners and that Jesus hides our sins?
What's it mean to believe in Jesus? You don't know? Well, I'm sure you do, but you are using the answer questions with questions debate technique...I'll play.
It means to believe that he is the Christ. God's own Son sent to this earth to pay for the sins of everyone. Those who believe that and accept that they are condemned sinners without him and receive forgiveness shall inherit eternal life.
Not live his teachings? You mean like follow the Torah? Follow Budda? Believe in Mohammed? Right. Those would not be his teachings.
Is sin good? Of course not, that's why he came here, to abolish sin. To fulfill the law. To purchase that which is LOST. Hello?
Yes we are "sinners" if claim otherwise the truth does not live within us. If we claim to obtain righteousness by observing the "law" the sacrifice of Jesus is mocked.
1Jo 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
I'm not sure which part of that is not clear to you, or which part you feel is twisted but it's pretty plain to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom
If this is so, then why do professed Christians care if someone commits adultry, gets drunk, murders, rapes, steals?
If Jesus hides all these sins, why is there a word such as hypocrisy?
GOOD question, I've been a bit curious of that myself. We should not be so surprised and upset that the secular world does such things. Funny though that the people who Jesus called the "hypocrites" were the "most righteous" of the day!
BUT to answer your question, there is a difference in living a life and following a teaching that God says is the "right" way to go (I.E don't murder) and thinking you gain righteousness from it. They are two TOTALLY different things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom
Washed in the blood, its all good churchianity is what i'm hearing from you JV.
godspeed,
freedom
I'm sorry that the church and "mainstream" Christianity bothers you. That flys against many teachings of the Bible to love your brother, including 1 John:
I don't see the call to be a "lone wolf" sorry.
1Jo 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
Gospel means "Good news" not "condemnation to those who can't live up to a standard".
I agree - but there are cases where lies from the father of lies are just that. Jesus called Peter Satan at one time when he tried to "thawrt" the plan of salvation - remember?
There is a time when you DO need to call a spade a spade. Heresy is one of them.
It's just bizarre to me that you call someone exhorting people to stop sinning!
A kin to Satan. And then use the example of Peter speaking from his ego and grandstanding as the example.... hmmm.
Quote:
What's it mean to believe in Jesus? You don't know? Well, I'm sure you do, but you are using the answer questions with questions debate technique...I'll play.
It means to believe that he is the Christ. God's own Son sent to this earth to pay for the sins of everyone. Those who believe that and accept that they are condemned sinners without him and receive forgiveness shall inherit eternal life.
Even the devils believe this, how are we any different if we only believe to the degree of devils?
Quote:
Not live his teachings? You mean like follow the Torah? Follow Budda? Believe in Mohammed? Right. Those would not be his teachings.
Can you not answer this? Do you believe that we are called to live the teachings of Jesus Christ?
Quote:
Is sin good? Of course not, that's why he came here, to abolish sin. To fulfill the law. To purchase that which is LOST. Hello?
Sin has not been abolished? You get the newspaper? How about TV? Sin still stands and frankly it has gotten worse. So i think Jesus was teaching us that by living like Him, the example He set, is the way, the straight and narrow way, the way to holiness, godliness, righteousness, even without spot.
Quote:
Yes we are "sinners" if claim otherwise the truth does not live within us. If we claim to obtain righteousness by observing the "law" the sacrifice of Jesus is mocked.
Jesus said that we are to keep His commandments. We crucify Him afresh when we sin.
Quote:
[indent]1Jo 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Those that are purified from all sin are those that walk in the light. Not those that walk in darkness and accept sin as a way of life.
Quote:
GOOD question, I've been a bit curious of that myself. We should not be so surprised and upset that the secular world does such things. Funny though that the people who Jesus called the "hypocrites" were the "most righteous" of the day!
Actually they weren't....Righteous has a meaning and it isn't hypocrit.
Quote:
BUT to answer your question, there is a difference in living a life and following a teaching that God says is the "right" way to go (I.E don't murder) and thinking you gain righteousness from it. They are two TOTALLY different things.
We are called to be Righteous, Holy, Godly, Perfect, even Unspotted from the world. We are not given promises that are impossible to fulfill.
Quote:
I'm sorry that the church and "mainstream" Christianity bothers you. That flys against many teachings of the Bible to love your brother, including 1 John:
I don't see the call to be a "lone wolf" sorry.
You didn't answer the question, you just made an assumption.
Quote:
1Jo 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
Gospel means "Good news" not "condemnation to those who can't live up to a standard".
Then why will everyman be rewarded based on his deeds.
Every man judged by his actions?
Where's the truth is telling people they can say the sinners prayer and then keep living a sinful life... I don't recall reading that in any scripture, ever.
I agree with you, when it comes to the 2nd word, believeth in THAT verse. However, we weren't talking about that verse...in 1 John 5:1, the word believeth means just that, believe. From 4100...to have faith, believe, commit, put in trust with.
Those who believeth in the Son (Greek present tense = continues to believe) are those who obey the Son.
Since those who do not obey the Son do not have eternal life they cannot be the ones who believeth in the Son because the ones who believeth in the Son do have eternal life.
Therefore those who do not obey do not believe. If you trust God you will obey him...
You can see this plainly taught in the 3rd chapter of Hebrews - where it states that the evidence of unbelief is disobedience.
Heb 3:17 And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient?
Heb 3:19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.
HK
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And then use the example of Peter speaking from his ego and grandstanding as the example.... hmmm.
