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Old 02-22-2009, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
4,273 posts, read 3,700,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
I START with a Quote from a classic, Charles Dickens A Christmas Carol
The scene is set where Scrooge is confronted by a ghost of his deceased partner, Marley, for whom Scrooge sings praise of Marley's ability to run such a successful business whilst alive......


"Oh! captive, bound, and double-ironed," cried the phantom, "not to know, that ages of incessant labour, by immortal creatures, for this earth must pass into eternity before the good of which it is susceptible is all developed. Not to know that any Christian spirit working kindly in its little sphere, whatever it may be, will find its mortal life too short for its vast means of usefulness. Not to know that no space of regret can make amends for one life's opportunity misused! Yet such was I! Oh! such was I!"
"But you were always a good man of business, Jacob," faltered Scrooge, who now began to apply this to himself. "Business!" cried the Ghost, wringing its hands again. "Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"

I post this now because I want to make commentary on a similar thread posted by one of the other great posters herein
Years ago, when Living in the Southwest, when younger, more optimistic and more idealized, I asked at a church where I was attending , why there was no great charitable works undertaken by the congregation to improve the lot of others in the world around them.
The responses I got were very disturbing, and I will paraphrase here
"I don;t help others I help myself" (Selfishness)
I am trying to get everything I can (greed)
But most disturbing of all were several individuals, who had the opinion that the purpose of life was only to accept Jesus and go to heaven. According to them, Charitable deeds and good works are not required for entry to heaven, therefore why would we waste time or feel obligated to do such?
In otherwords, "I don't Have to"
I guess some people only do in life what they "have " to do
That must be a miserable way to run one's life. And I cannot see supporting any movement , religous or otherwise, that cannot make a positive impact in the world.

When I suggested to some church members that maybe would should organize a used clothing drive for a local homeless shelter, their response collectively was "WHY?That's not our problem....."

Well, seeing the quote above IT IS our problem. Mankind, suffering, the human experience, all oare our business and our call to make the world a better place. All of us.

I remember once seeing a sign of being a winner vs being a loser. On the side of the loser was "The loser says 'It is not my problem'" whereas ..."The Winner says 'Here let me help'"

Now I have long since left "religion" I don't do memberships, I don't do causes or movements BUT I do contribute to charity and I do help out where I can. Interesting, because to this day the words and the attitude of several (many) followers in Texas still remind me of "Me first" or "What's in it for me?" when I pick up a few extra groceries for a neighbor who lives on a fixed income or I pick up an extra book to give to a kid or donate to the library, or when I toss some clothes I picked up off the clearance rack into the Goodwill bin. Someone would say "You don't Have to do that." My response is "Yeah Right I don't Have to I CHOOSE to, so why don't you?" give me a good reason NOT to help another human being and I will consider not doing it.
I still have family in Texas. My son and I were setting up to spend a morning helping to convert an old office into art gallery space. He asked "Are we getting paid for this?" Well, clearly, he had been talking to his grandfather in Texas, which yes was where he said he heard it.
I explained that the payment comes in form of the contribution to society, how people's lives will be enriched by what we are doing; how our example will hopefully inspire others to get involved, and how we are not doing this for our glorym but for the pure sake of making our community a little more fun and a little more cultured. And that will have a great impact when it inspires and challenges others.
Too bad though, many people see only money, themselves and no one else. And although I don't do religion, if I did, I could never choose one that does not work to make the world around them a better place.
THE GREAT THING IS we don't NEED religion to make the world a better place. We need people to think of those around them and do what they can, anything at all, using their talents and abilities, to enrich the lives of others and little by litte, family by family and neighborhood by neighborhood, make the world better.
One family at a time, do what the Lord has laid on your heart to do............just because. Blessings.
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Old 02-22-2009, 02:45 PM
 
810 posts, read 850,334 times
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LargeKingCat,
I think the comment from your son spoke volumes about our society. Think about how to really get your point across to someone or an organization you have to "hit 'em where it hurts". Where is that? Their wallets. It's unfortunate.

I do belong to an organized religion. The focus of my "religion" is worship to God. A side effect though is that it does inspire me and remind me to help others.
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Old 02-22-2009, 09:06 PM
 
Location: kind of North of the middle of nowhere, FL
3,006 posts, read 1,619,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richio View Post
I agree with DOTL and Freedom.

I’ll add…
One shouldn’t confuse church membership as being a relationship with Jesus.
God doesn’t care so much about membership in man’s organizations – only that your name is written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The concept that ‘good’ people go to heaven and ‘bad’ people go to hell - is a LIE which could be politely labeled as a "misconception".
No one measures up as being worthy of heaven.
Good works do not tally as sufficient.

There is only one way, and that is trusting in the righteousness of Christ - and applying His death as done in your stead.
Applied with a sincere heart and just a tiny bit of faith, one can turn a belief that God MIGHT exist into a relationship with Him and a changed life.

Not a life where you are turned into that which you may now despise, but a life enriched by knowing the author of life.

Good deeds are always good and sin is always bad, but keep this in mind:
(The first verse has been overused to the point of seeming trite, but read on to the next two verses.)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned:
but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:16-18
In other words:
Specific sins don't send a person to hell, but not believing in the Lamb of God.

You can change your default destination, and you don’t need a church to do it.
"If" Jesus is who He said He is, it'd be foolish not to at least seek to find out.
You would not be suggesting that there are good people in hell and bad people in heaven (Hypothetically speaking) ?
If so then you undermine the whole entire foundation on which Christianity and it's contributing myths stand.

I think that yes, people are basically in need of "motivation" to move forward in life. Sitting here on my bumm may be more fun than going out an working, but the motivation to pay the bills sends me out to work. Such it is with the myths of heaven and hell; they may or may not inspire people to good deeds. But many people will not go out and do good deeds without some sort of motivating factor and that is sad. Society NEEDS good deeds. This should not be about heaven or hell but about something real and much more important: humanity.
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Arizona
777 posts, read 920,912 times
Reputation: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
You would not be suggesting that there are good people in hell and bad people in heaven (Hypothetically speaking) ?
If so then you undermine the whole entire foundation on which Christianity and it's contributing myths stand.

I think that yes, people are basically in need of "motivation" to move forward in life. Sitting here on my bumm may be more fun than going out an working, but the motivation to pay the bills sends me out to work. Such it is with the myths of heaven and hell; they may or may not inspire people to good deeds. But many people will not go out and do good deeds without some sort of motivating factor and that is sad. Society NEEDS good deeds. This should not be about heaven or hell but about something real and much more important: humanity.
The idea that goodness will get you into heaven is wrong.
It negates the necessity of Jesus dying for our not measuring up to perfection.

Certainly, good deeds are good, but they will not get you into heaven.

When it comes to sin, man sees a wide range: from little sins to really bad sins, but sin of any extent occurs because we are just not perfect.
Thankfully, Jesus offers to stand between ourselves and God, so that when God looks our way, He only sees the righteousness of His Son.

There is forgiveness for all sins big and small, so that even bad people can change and turn to God.
...Turning from their past sins in repentance – turning 180 degrees to now following the example of Christ.

This is called grace and it is extended to all people for as long as they breathe – having the free will to turn to God.

Because of our inherent sinfulness, all people (of the age of accountability) have a default destination and it is not heaven.
The Holy Spirit given to all who believe, changes our default destination and begins the life-long process of reshaping us into being more and more like God’s Son.

Religion is good for promoting morality, but the real reality is that good works alone will not get you into heaven.
It is faith in Jesus which makes the real difference.
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
(John 14:6)
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 8,459,625 times
Reputation: 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richio View Post
The idea that goodness will get you into heaven is wrong.
It negates the necessity of Jesus dying for our not measuring up to perfection.

Certainly, good deeds are good, but they will not get you into heaven.
Is that the purpose of life, just to get into heaven? Is that the purpose of Christ? To just settle, least common denominator type of Savior?

Deeds do matter, everyman shall be held accountable to what he thinks and does. All of the books shall be opened and read.

The base salvation is that of not being in Satan's prison. There are many degrees of glory in the heavens, if we are filthy then we will be filthy still. Some will not even be worthy of the second ressurection.



Quote:
When it comes to sin, man sees a wide range from little sins to really bad sins, but sin of any extent occurs because we are not perfect.
Thankfully, Jesus offers to stand between ourselves and God, so that when God looks our way, He only sees the righteousness of His Son.
And for those that have just said Lord, Lord.... He will say be gone from me, Ye that Worketh INIQUITY. "I never knew you".

There are requirements to crowns, rewards, glory.

The measure is God, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is Perfect.

There is no Scripture that says be mediocre and settle for being a slave to sin.


Quote:
There is forgiveness for all sins big and small, so that even bad people can change and turn to God.
Turning from their past sins in repentance – turning 180 degrees to the other direction – following now the example of Christ.
There is one sin that is unforgivable, that said, if we forgive not our brother, then our sins will not be forgiven.

There are promises and there are criteria upon which the promise is predicated.

Quote:
This is called grace and it is extended to all people for as long as they breathe – having the free will to turn to God.
Grace is given, in that we will grow from grace to grace, not rest in grace as a crutch to disobedience because we say Lord, Lord.

Quote:
Because of our inherent sinfulness, all people (of the age of accountability) have a default destination and it is not heaven.
The Holy Spirit given to all who believe, changes our default destination and begins the life-long process of reshaping us into being more and more like God’s Son.
Has Jesus not shown us a way to holiness, and taught us the path to righteousness... He undid the path of Adam, and laid the path of Saints.

Quote:
Religion is good for promoting morality, but the real reality is that good works alone will not get you into heaven.
It is faith in Jesus which makes the real difference.
Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
John 14:6
And by this Faith are good works wrought. Amen!

godspeed,

freedom
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Old 02-22-2009, 11:39 PM
 
Location: Arizona
777 posts, read 920,912 times
Reputation: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Is that the purpose of life, just to get into heaven? Is that the purpose of Christ? To just settle, least common denominator type of Savior?

Deeds do matter, everyman shall be held accountable to what he thinks and does. All of the books shall be opened and read.

The base salvation is that of not being in Satan's prison. There are many degrees of glory in the heavens, if we are filthy then we will be filthy still. Some will not even be worthy of the second ressurection.





And for those that have just said Lord, Lord.... He will say be gone from me, Ye that Worketh INIQUITY. "I never knew you".

There are requirements to crowns, rewards, glory.

The measure is God, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is Perfect.

There is no Scripture that says be mediocre and settle for being a slave to sin.




There is one sin that is unforgivable, that said, if we forgive not our brother, then our sins will not be forgiven.

There are promises and there are criteria upon which the promise is predicated.



Grace is given, in that we will grow from grace to grace, not rest in grace as a crutch to disobedience because we say Lord, Lord.



Has Jesus not shown us a way to holiness, and taught us the path to righteousness... He undid the path of Adam, and laid the path of Saints.



And by this Faith are good works wrought. Amen!

godspeed,

freedom
Hi Freedom,
I was speaking to the concept the good people automatically go to heaven and bad people - because of their specific sins - go to hell.

The Holy Spirit works in us - sanctification, but this is not the first step into the kingdom.
First repentance - then sanctification.
(set apart for God's good purposes as I understand it)
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:14

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:5-8
The goal of man is first - self preservation.
Once one is part of the kingdom and a child of the Most High, one is free to pursue the higher calling of servitude and good works as God directs and gives opportunity.

Those whom Jesus rejected - those who read off a list of their accomplishments "for God" were trusting the sufficiency of their works.
Perhaps, God had not even led them to build their huge mega churches and christian campuses and even amusement parks.
Perhaps these were their ideas of how to build the kingdom, but unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain.

"Be ye perfect" is a call to the higher calling of purity even of thought and motivation.
It is a moment by moment setting of priorities and allowing the Spirit to have His way in manifesting in us the new creations which we are in Christ.
We are to persevere toward this goal, but there is no condemnation for those in Christ, for He lives forever - always interceding on our behalf through His perfect one time sacrifice of obedience to the Father.

Once one is in the kingdom, we are to forgive and continue in God's will, but for those not yet in the kingdom, there is no unforgivable sin.
Jesus died so that all might have the right to become the sons and daughters of God.
And to these - was I directing my statements.
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:36 AM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 8,459,625 times
Reputation: 1058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richio View Post
Hi Freedom,
I was speaking to the concept the good people automatically go to heaven and bad people - because of their specific sins - go to hell.

The Holy Spirit works in us - sanctification, but this is not the first step into the kingdom.
First repentance - then sanctification.
(set apart for God's good purposes as I understand it)
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Romans 8:14

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:5-8
The goal of man is first - self preservation.
Once one is part of the kingdom and a child of the Most High, one is free to pursue the higher calling of servitude and good works as God directs and gives opportunity.

Those whom Jesus rejected - those who read off a list of their accomplishments "for God" were trusting the sufficiency of their works.
Perhaps, God had not even led them to build their huge mega churches and christian campuses and even amusement parks.
Perhaps these were their ideas of how to build the kingdom, but unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain.

"Be ye perfect" is a call to the higher calling of purity even of thought and motivation.
It is a moment by moment setting of priorities and allowing the Spirit to have His way in manifesting in us the new creations which we are in Christ.
We are to persevere toward this goal, but there is no condemnation for those in Christ, for He lives forever - always interceding on our behalf through His perfect one time sacrifice of obedience to the Father.

Once one is in the kingdom, we are to forgive and continue in God's will, but for those not yet in the kingdom, there is no unforgivable sin.
Jesus died so that all might have the right to become the sons and daughters of God.
And to these - was I directing my statements.
Thanks for clarifying, these are beautiful thoughts and very well presented.
My gratititude goes out to you and your ability to share.

I'm a little sensitive to the " i need do nothing" doctrine that has been taught in the churches the last few decades, all it has seemed to do is drive the youth away from God, and make excuse for the Elders.

godspeed,

freedom
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:50 AM
 
12,398 posts, read 15,039,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
THE GREAT THING IS we don't NEED religion to make the world a better place. We need people to think of those around them and do what they can, anything at all, using their talents and abilities, to enrich the lives of others and little by litte, family by family and neighborhood by neighborhood, make the world better.

I agree that we don't need "religion" to make the world a better place..
"Religion" IMO, has actually caused many of the past wars and other hardships to humanity.."Religions" are not from God...They are from the pride and greed of man..

I also agree with the rest of your quote about people helping people and so forth, creating the domino effect..HOWEVER, I believe in order to see that happen, everyone would have to be of one mind, one purpose and full of love and compassion...Only God can supply that in the magnitude that you would like to see happen..He has given us the ways and means, but that is not the subject of this thread

I applaud you for your good deeds and pray that others will see your goodness and love and would also do what you do..Whether they are believers or not
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Old 02-23-2009, 07:51 AM
 
4,512 posts, read 4,696,916 times
Reputation: 789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Blue View Post
I agree that we don't need "religion" to make the world a better place..
"Religion" IMO, has actually caused many of the past wars and other hardships to humanity.."Religions" are not from God...They are from the pride and greed of man..

I also agree with the rest of your quote about people helping people and so forth, creating the domino effect..HOWEVER, I believe in order to see that happen, everyone would have to be of one mind, one purpose and full of love and compassion...Only God can supply that in the magnitude that you would like to see happen..He has given us the ways and means, but that is not the subject of this thread

I applaud you for your good deeds and pray that others will see your goodness and love and would also do what you do..Whether they are believers or not
oh thanky, maam, the magnitude has been there, but the quality, ya know... (never mind, never miss..)
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Arizona
777 posts, read 920,912 times
Reputation: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Thanks for clarifying, these are beautiful thoughts and very well presented.
My gratititude goes out to you and your ability to share.

I'm a little sensitive to the " i need do nothing" doctrine that has been taught in the churches the last few decades, all it has seemed to do is drive the youth away from God, and make excuse for the Elders.

godspeed,

freedom
Thank you. I must admit to plagiarizing Paul, though.

I agree.
The [OSAS/grace only] gospel of "get your name in the book and yer all set" doctrine is an example of how people tend to grasp one aspect of the truth and then run with it - to the exclusion of the rest of the truth.
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