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Old 03-05-2009, 08:47 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sherryturner View Post
Chapter 7---I think I got behind a day?
Chapter 7 is quite a mystery to me...
so any added guidance is appreciated.

At the beginning of chapter there are 4 angels called ...the 4 angels that are holding back any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree.
Another angel, coming from the east comes having the next seal.
I believe the angel is giving directions to the other 4 angels. He ( I think this is the angel saying this) tells them not to let harm come until the seal is put on the forhead of the 144.000.

About the 144,000...I have heard two different thoughts
The 1st being that the 144,000 are part of the original Jewish tribes...the remnant
The 2nd being that the 144,000 is symbolic for meaning all of the faithful believers who are living during the tribulation.

The great multitude in white robes...
according the vs. 14, this great multitude are those who have came out of the great tribulation remaining faithful to God.

Some think this is where we are raptured....I, however, find that also during the trumpets...God is still protecting those who have the seal of God on their foreheads.....

Thoughts?
Quote:
Some think this is where we are raptured....I, however, find that also during the trumpets...God is still protecting those who have the seal of God on their foreheads.....
Good point, sherry. For no one is rapture off the earth. I know that many well meaning people believe this, but a careful study of the Scripture will reveal this just isn't true.

Just one passage as an example:

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, *Where, Lord?

*they are asking, "where shall they be taken to? See what Jesus Himself answered:

And he said unto them, Wheresoever the *body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together

*body means dead bodies, corpses

Does that sound like heaven to you?
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Old 03-05-2009, 09:02 PM
 
Location: Hot-Houston Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Good point, sherry. For no one is rapture off the earth. I know that many well meaning people believe this, but a careful study of the Scripture will reveal this just isn't true.

Just one passage as an example:

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, *Where, Lord?

*they are asking, "where shall they be taken to? See what Jesus Himself answered:

And he said unto them, Wheresoever the *body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together

*body means dead bodies, corpses

Does that sound like heaven to you?
Yep I'm one who believes in the rapture and I believe the verses you quoted back that up. My Bible says verse 37 like this "Lord where will this happen? the disciples asked. Jesus replied, Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near".
One vulture circling overhead does not mean much, but a gathering of vultures means that a dead body is nearby, one sign of the end may not be significant, but when there are many signs, the second coming is near.
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Old 03-05-2009, 09:11 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
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Chapter has got to be some future event. We have not suffer a great tribulation, if anything life has become easier for the most part, but if we are to have a tribulation like no other then we havent even scratched the surface. 70 AD was not world wide it was localized but from what I understand of the great tribulation it will be the worst of all. We are not currently going thru anything like the holocaust or even the persicutions of the past. Sure it may look like we are getting worse and certain things are falling into place for the worst of the worst but we still have more to see.
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Old 03-05-2009, 09:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Yep I'm one who believes in the rapture and I believe the verses you quoted back that up. My Bible says verse 37 like this "Lord where will this happen? the disciples asked. Jesus replied, Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near".
One vulture circling overhead does not mean much, but a gathering of vultures means that a dead body is nearby, one sign of the end may not be significant, but when there are many signs, the second coming is near.
ILNC,
I am not sure what you are trying to prove here but tell me this...the one's that are "taken"...if you believe in a rapture then they taken to heaven? Then you must believe there are there dead corpses and vultures in heaven?

No, this happens on the earth AFTER Christ's foot touches down on the Mt. of Olives and the vultures or eagles, i.e fowls of the air take part in the great supper of God.

Re 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

That's where they are taken to..To see Christ's victory over His enemies...
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Old 03-05-2009, 09:25 PM
 
Location: Hot-Houston Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
ILNC,
I am not sure what you are trying to prove here but tell me this...the one's that are "taken"...if you believe in a rapture then they taken to heaven? Then you must believe there are there dead corpses and vultures in heaven?

No, this happens on the earth AFTER Christ's foot touches down on the Mt. of Olives and the vultures or eagles, i.e fowls of the air take part in the great supper of God.

Re 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

That's where they are taken to..To see Christ's victory over His enemies...
I'm not trying to prove anything, just stating what I believe. Yes I believe when the rapture happens those taken will be in Heaven with Jesus and very much alive.
1 Thess 4:17 says we will caught up in the air to meet Him.
Rev 19:14 says the armies of Heaven will follow Him on white horses, that is all those who have died or been raptured.
Yes you are right, when He returns to earth His feet will touch the Mt of Olives, notice in 1 Thess 4:17 His feet do not touch the ground.
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Old 03-05-2009, 10:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
I'm not trying to prove anything, just stating what I believe. Yes I believe when the rapture happens those taken will be in Heaven with Jesus and very much alive.
1 Thess 4:17 says we will caught up in the air to meet Him.
Rev 19:14 says the armies of Heaven will follow Him on white horses, that is all those who have died or been raptured.
Yes you are right, when He returns to earth His feet will touch the Mt of Olives, notice in 1 Thess 4:17 His feet do not touch the ground.
An important rule when studying a section of
Scripture such as this below. Always find the subject and the object...

1 Thess 4...1 Thess. 413 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Subject...them which are alseep

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Subject...them which sleep in Jesus

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Subject...them which are alseep

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Subject: dead in Christ

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Subject: them in the clouds

object: comfort one another

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words

What words...the words of Paul telling them where their dead loved one are and that Christ will bring them back with him.

There is no rapture in the subject. You can try to make it the subject but that's twisting the Scriptures. There is no time frame here..no mention of a tribulation or being removed before it starts. That's adding to what these passages say.

Quote:
1 Thess 4:17 says we will caught up in the air to meet Him.
Does it really. Are you sure?

Here is what it really says..

16 For the Lord himself shall *descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

*descend means to step down.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to *meet the Lord in the **air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

*meet is a military term and means to go out to meet someone 1/2 way and escort them back to where you came from.

**air #109 is the Greek word aer and means the atmosphere we breath.

The Greek word for the air up higher is #3772 and means the valuted expanse of the sky. As in where the birds fly.

Mt 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air (#3772) have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

The sister passage to this one is in Matthew:

Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Last edited by mshipmate; 03-05-2009 at 10:09 PM..
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Old 03-05-2009, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Hot-Houston Texas
20,050 posts, read 21,055,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
An important rule when studying a section of
Scripture such as this below. Always find the subject and the object...

1 Thess 4...1 Thess. 413 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Subject...them which are alseep

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Subject...them which sleep in Jesus

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Subject...them which are alseep

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Subject: dead in Christ

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Subject: them in the clouds

object: comfort one another

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words

What words...the words of Paul telling them where their dead loved one are and that Christ will bring them back with him.

There is no rapture in the subject. You can try to make it the subject but that's twisting the Scriptures.



Does it really. Are you sure?

Here is what it really says..

16 For the Lord himself shall *descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

*descend means to step down.

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to *meet the Lord in the **air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

*meet is a military term and means to go out to meet someone 1/2 way and escort them back to where you came from.

**air #109 is the Greek word aer and means the atmosphere we breath.

The Greek word for the air up higher is #3772 and means the valuted expanse of the sky. As in where the birds fly.

Mt 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air (#3772) have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

The sister passage to this one is in Matthew:

Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Well we disagree, I believe the Bible clearly teaches the Rapture will happen. But I agree that people can twist Scripture around. So I guess we can agree to disagree on this subject.
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Old 03-05-2009, 10:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Well we disagree, I believe the Bible clearly teaches the Rapture will happen. But I agree that people can twist Scripture around. So I guess we can agree to disagree on this subject.
I agree the elect will be 'snatched' caught up (harpazo) when the angels gather them for they are gathering them to Mt. Zion. This will involve being taken by force, but it happens AFTER the tribulation...not before.

I'm sorry you can't see it from what I've shown you. Let me ask you this...why do you believe in the pre-trib rapture? Is it because it's what you've been taught or because you yourself did a word by word study of the passages you've been told show a pre-trib rapture?

Stop and think it through. Then if you still can't see what is plainly taught in the Word we will have to agree to disagree.
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Old 03-05-2009, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Hot-Houston Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
I agree the elect will be 'snatched' caught up (harpazo) when the angels gather them for they are gathering them to Mt. Zion. This will involve being taken by force, but it happens AFTER the tribulation...not before.

I'm sorry you can't see it from what I've shown you. Let me ask you this...why do you believe in the pre-trib rapture? Is it because it's what you've been taught or because you yourself did a word by word study of the passages you've been told show a pre-trib rapture?

Stop and think it through. Then if you still can't see what is plainly taught in the Word we will have to agree to disagree.
I believe it because it's what the Bible, God's Word has taught me. You stop and think about, do you really believe God is going allow His children to go through such an horrific time? I don't. And it is plainly taught in the Bible.
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Old 03-05-2009, 10:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
I believe it because it's what the Bible, God's Word has taught me. You stop and think about, do you really believe God is going allow His children to go through such an horrific time? I don't. And it is plainly taught in the Bible.

It's plainly taught that God's people will be here during the tribulation, and just as He kept the 3 Hebrew children save IN the fire, and Noah save ON the ark, and Daniel save IN the lion's den He will do the same for His elect. Is anything to hard for God? Isn't your God big enough to keep us safe under His wings?

Ps. 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

* the valley of the shadow of death is a figure of speech for this life here on the earth.

Pa. 91:1 ¶ He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

Pr 18:10 The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe

I could post passage after passage, but it's late and I must get to bed..
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