Lets Walk Thru Revelation (Leviticus, preaching, Isaiah, prophets)

[Timothylogan3]

That is how I break up the book of revelation. Refer chapter 1 verse 19. " write therefore the things that you have seen, the things that are and things that will take place after these things". The things he has seen would be the vision of the Son of man. This is fundamental, as later we come across another who is like the Christ. The things that are is chapter 2 to 3. The 7 churches are churches that existed at the time of the vision, however the message to them is also to " him who has an ear". And the Spirit is speaking to the churches. And finally the things that are to come start from chapter 4 to 22. Refer chapter 4 verse 1 after these things I looked.... come up here and I will show you the things that must take place after these things . Note your time phrases and the opening of chapter 4.

[Timothylogan3]

That helps. 1 The things that he has seen. Most of chapter one is is the vision of Christ, with the first part the introduction and the greeting, then the vision of Jesus and finally instructions. Keywords are revelation, shortly or speedly, blessed, prophecy, testimony, lampstand, fire, seven, and more. Most of these are interesting of you look at them in greek. 2 The things that are. Chapter 2 to 3. The seven churches. The themes : 1st love, persecution, compromising, corruption, dead church, faithful church and lukewarm church. 3 The things that will take place after these things. Chapter 4 to 22. We are 1st introduced to the throne room in heaven, followed by worship and the lamb of God. Chapter 6 to 22 covers the seven seals. But within the 7th seal, from chapter 8 to 22, are the seven trumpets and the last three of those trumpets are the three woes, refer chapter 8 vs 13. Chapter 16 to 22 are the 7 bowls or the last woe. In other words the last bowl closes the last trumpet which closes the last seal. You have seven seals, the last seal opens the seven trumpets and the last trumpet opens the seven bowls. This is how I study revelation. I don't break it up. I personally never break the book, but I study it in it's entirety. For me it is the book of of revelation and not revelations. I study the whole thing as one, but each time absorbing different aspects and zooming in. I do this over and over and over, but each time the focus is different.

[Timothylogan3]

I am going to skip the things which he has seen and the things that are. I am going to jump to the things that will take place, Chapter 4 to 22 : again skipping chapter 4 and 5 and going straight for the seals. Seal 1 chapter 6 vs 1 to 2 : the white horse and its rider. Seal 2 chapt 6 vs 3 to 4 : red horse and its rider. Seal 3 chapter 6 verse 5 to 6 : black horse and its rider. Seal 4 chapter 6 verse 7 to 8 : pale horse . Seal 5 chapter 6 verse 9 to 11 : martyrs or souls under the altar. Seal 6 chapter 6 verse 12 to 17 : the kings and great and rich men of the earth. Take note of characters in the 6th seal and 6th trumpet and 6th bowl. Seventh chapter : you have the 144 from the 12 tribes of israel and the multitude from the great multitude. Chapter 8 to 9 : 7 angels with trumpets. Sixth trumpet : sinners who will not repent and the angel with the little book. Chapter 11 and 12 and 13 : the two witness, the beast, the dragon or satan or the devil and his angels, the false prophet, the woman and the child, Michael and his angels, the people of the earth, the 24 elders and the seventh angel. Chapter 14 and 15 : 144 thousand and the 3 warning angels, another three angels in chapter 14 verse 14 to 20 and a One who sat on the clouds, and seven angels with the seven last plagues. Chapter 16, sixth bowl : the dragon, the beast and the false prophet, the kings of the earth - gathering to armageddon. Chapter 17 : the scarlet woman and the beast. Chapter 18 : angel with great authority, kings and merchants of the earth. Chapter 19 : the great multitude in heaven, the 24 elders, the four living creatures, Christ, the beast and the false prophet and the kings of the earth and their armies. Chapter 20 to 22: satan, the martyrs, the nations from gog and magogo, the dead, death and hades, God, the Lamb, the saved nations and the kings.

[RobinD69]

Originally Posted by Preterist

Is everyone waiting for me to catch up or is this thread dead? Just wondering. I will finish regardless!

Preterist

I dont believe it is dead but I do believe we are past chapter 22 and can start the fireworks if someone wants to start.

[Preterist]

Is there one futurist here who will honestly acknowledge that he has a serious problem with Revelation 1:1 and 3 and 22:6 and 10?

Thanks.

Preterist

[RobinD69]

Originally Posted by Preterist

Is there one futurist here who will honestly acknowledge that he has a serious problem with Revelation 1:1 and 3 and 22:6 and 10?

Thanks.

Preterist

Well lets see, not off hand, but maybe some of the context between 1 and 22. Look at the things that are to to come. The entire world was not even completely occupied at that time. I havent seen the lion lay with the lamb. I dont remeber an earthquacke that split the mount of olives from east to west. As a matter of fact Israel wasnt even a nation in 70AD, there was only a remnant.

Okay that is out of the way, what evidence or proof do you have for the NT being complete prior to 70AD? Not arguing I have my own theories and agree somewhat with the 70AD culmination of canon.

[RobinD69]

Originally Posted by Timothylogan3

I am going to skip the things which he has seen and the things that are. I am going to jump to the things that will take place, Chapter 4 to 22 : again skipping chapter 4 and 5 and going straight for the seals. Seal 1 chapter 6 vs 1 to 2 : the white horse and its rider. Seal 2 chapt 6 vs 3 to 4 : red horse and its rider. Seal 3 chapter 6 verse 5 to 6 : black horse and its rider. Seal 4 chapter 6 verse 7 to 8 : pale horse . Seal 5 chapter 6 verse 9 to 11 : martyrs or souls under the altar. Seal 6 chapter 6 verse 12 to 17 : the kings and great and rich men of the earth. Take note of characters in the 6th seal and 6th trumpet and 6th bowl. Seventh chapter : you have the 144 from the 12 tribes of israel and the multitude from the great multitude. Chapter 8 to 9 : 7 angels with trumpets. Sixth trumpet : sinners who will not repent and the angel with the little book. Chapter 11 and 12 and 13 : the two witness, the beast, the dragon or satan or the devil and his angels, the false prophet, the woman and the child, Michael and his angels, the people of the earth, the 24 elders and the seventh angel. Chapter 14 and 15 : 144 thousand and the 3 warning angels, another three angels in chapter 14 verse 14 to 20 and a One who sat on the clouds, and seven angels with the seven last plagues. Chapter 16, sixth bowl : the dragon, the beast and the false prophet, the kings of the earth - gathering to armageddon. Chapter 17 : the scarlet woman and the beast. Chapter 18 : angel with great authority, kings and merchants of the earth. Chapter 19 : the great multitude in heaven, the 24 elders, the four living creatures, Christ, the beast and the false prophet and the kings of the earth and their armies. Chapter 20 to 22: satan, the martyrs, the nations from gog and magogo, the dead, death and hades, God, the Lamb, the saved nations and the kings.

Keep it up I want to see more.

[Betsey Lane]

Revelation 1:7 Let's not skip this one: Behold, He comes with clouds; and every eyes shall see Him, and THEY ALSO (emphasis added mine) which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth wail because of Him, even so, Amen.

Definition of Also: In like manner; likewise, too.

Related words: additionally, all, included, and, all, along, as well, beside, else, as well....................just to name a few.

Sentences using related words:

(1). Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and additionally, those which pierced Him.
(2). Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and likewise, those which pierced Him.
(3). Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, included those which pierced Him.
etc. etc. etc..............


SUMMARY: This means that not one particular generation was singled out! It was given the generations to come, in which we are included.

So if your eyes has seen Him, please, I'm dying to know: What does my Saviour look like? Do He still have the nails? Is He as white as snow? Please tell me, it's a moment I've been dreaming of forever, to see my Father's face.

[RobinD69]

Originally Posted by Betsey Lane

Revelation 1:7 Let's not skip this one: Behold, He comes with clouds; and every eyes shall see Him, and THEY ALSO (emphasis added mine) which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth wail because of Him, even so, Amen.

Definition of Also: In like manner; likewise, too.

Related words: additionally, all, included, and, all, along, as well, beside, else, as well....................just to name a few.

Sentences using related words:

(1). Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and additionally, those which pierced Him.
(2). Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and likewise, those which pierced Him.
(3). Behold, He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see Him, included those which pierced Him.
etc. etc. etc..............


SUMMARY: This means that not one particular generation was singled out! It was given the generations to come, in which we are included.

So if your eyes has seen Him, please, I'm dying to know: What does my Saviour look like? Do He still have the nails? Is He as white as snow? Please tell me, it's a moment I've been dreaming of forever, to see my Father's face.

Very good Betsey, trully none of us have seen the Lord, not yet.

[Preterist]

Originally Posted by RobinD69

Well lets see, not off hand, but maybe some of the context between 1 and 22. Look at the things that are to to come. The entire world was not even completely occupied at that time. I havent seen the lion lay with the lamb. I dont remeber an earthquacke that split the mount of olives from east to west. As a matter of fact Israel wasnt even a nation in 70AD, there was only a remnant.

Okay that is out of the way, what evidence or proof do you have for the NT being complete prior to 70AD? Not arguing I have my own theories and agree somewhat with the 70AD culmination of canon.

Greetings Robin! As I attempted to point out in my chapter-by-chapter summary, the Book of Revelation is highly symbolic. The same is true of such prophetic books as Zechariah. Why does the Mount of Olives have to be literally split in two (Zech. 14)? Was the earth literally rolled up as a scroll when God came in judgment against Edom (Isa. 34). Did all the host of heaven dissolve. Did the Lord have a literal sword filled with blood?

Again, futurists must deal with the clear time restraints placed upon the book itself. As I have attempted to demonstrate, the events of the Jewish Wars fit very well into the events described in the Book of Revelation. This is corroborated by Josephus in his first-hand account of the great horrors of that day! The kings of the early Roman empire fit John's description of the kings. The churches that are addressed are named specifically by Jesus Himself--they are churches of that particular first-century Asia Minor! Another extremely significant contributing factor in the misunderstanding of this book is the widespread ignorance on the part of the Church of the Jewish prophetic world. The modern western Church attempts to read its western mindset into this book brimming with Jewish symbolism.

There is absolutely nothing in the Book of Revelation itself that points to an A. D. 95 writing. All of the basis for that date rests on an ambiguous statement by Irenaeus. While there may appear to be many supports of that late date, all of them appeal to Irenaeus!

Furthermore, the "every eyes" that would see Him were the eyes of those connected in time to those who pierced Him. All the tribes of the land of Israel mourned because of Him in A. D. 70--just as their forefathers had mourned when they saw God come in judgment against them, destroying their temple and city and sending them into captivity. The difference in the Revelation is that the destruction is permanent. They had been given all the grace they'd be afforded. It was that generation and that generation alone that was responsible for "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Mat. 23). Jesus clearly said that all the woes would come upon that generation of Jews against whom He pronounced them! The Revelation is the carrying out of that judgment.

Daniel was also given a vision, but he was told to seal up the words of the prophecy because the time for fulfillment was far off (Dan. 8). It referred to the time of the end and not the end of time! Big difference. That time of the end was the end of the Old Covenant system of shadows and types and the full establishment of the time of the New Testament system of realities and anti-types found in Jesus! John, however, was told to not seal up the words of the prophecy because the time for fulfillment was at hand (Rev. 22:10). This is the fulfillment of Peter's words--"The end of all things is at hand" (1 Pet. 4:7).

Even if one insists on a late date of the Book of Revelation, he still must deal honestly with the time indicators that were given to John. If he is honest enough to do so, he must then come up with events that shortly took place after John was given the vision and wrote it down ca. A. D. 95. In other words, even if John wrote in A. D. 95, what was he shown that shortly took place after that? What time was at hand at that time that fits the events of the Revelation?

Anyone who does a thoughtful and thorough study of the time words tachos and engus will find that they consistently mean within a short period of time or near! To give them meanings out of that biblically established norm requires sound justification on the part of those who do so.

Was John shown those things which were to shortly take place? Was he not told that the time was near? How does the futurist respond to this apart from ignoring these time indicators or redefining them? The proper study of this wondrous book and the ability to come to the proper conclusions rests in the exegete's willingness to take these words at their face value--as they are used throughout the rest of the NT!

In Christ, Preterist