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Old 03-04-2009, 01:19 PM
 
1,139 posts, read 978,300 times
Reputation: 185
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
I think the original poster wanted to define what being a Christian was based on what the Bible says. Plain and simple.

Maybe we can honor his original intent and get back to a discussion of what it means to be a Christian based on what the Bible says. Literally says.

Rather than going off in tangents about tradition vs Scripture, sights of Jesus this or Jesus that, spiritual experiences and the like.

Carlos
Sorry

 
Old 03-04-2009, 01:25 PM
 
22,874 posts, read 10,812,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
It may be an oxymoron from your perspective MysticPhD but since the original poster started the thread to discuss what the Bible said about what it means to be a Christian, oxymoron or not...the most considerate thing to do would be to either discuss what the Bible says about this...or leave the thread.

Don't you think? Unless you want to hijack the thread for some reason. Carlos
Hardly . . . if you intend to ascertain what the bible actually "SAYS" about it (and I doubt it specifically addresses defining a "Christian" as the term is used today . . . although "following Jesus" would probably suffice). . . you cannot rely on a simple literal reading of scripture. You must fnd the deeper spiritual significance of "following Jesus" and how Jesus is "The Way." Even the spiritual significance of the words "belief and believe" need to be understood in a deeper sense than is commonly used. But since you seem more interested in proselytizing and not enlightenment . . . I leave it to you. I have no interest in proselytizing anything.
 
Old 03-04-2009, 01:38 PM
 
302 posts, read 323,118 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
Where does it say that ONLY scripture is useful for teaching.

You're missing the other half
2 Thess. 2:15

Rightly understood, the teaching, or traditions, of the apostles never contradicted the Old Testament scriptures --or the words of Jesus. If they did, then they would have been false apostles.

Donna Kupp
 
Old 03-04-2009, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Living in the San Diego area
1,039 posts, read 1,294,571 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Hardly . . . if you intend to ascertain what the bible actually "SAYS" about it (and I doubt it specifically addresses defining a "Christian" as the term is used today . . . although "following Jesus" would probably suffice). . . you cannot rely on a simple literal reading of scripture.
If understanding what something like the English words in the Bible actually SAY cannot be ascertained by a simple reading of scripture by itself then...yes you are correct.

But if we can approach the reading with humble hearts and stick to what is said without superimposing on the words our own ideas or philosophies then yes...I believe it is most certainly possible to ascertain what the words say.

Quote:
You must fnd the deeper spiritual significance of "following Jesus" and how Jesus is "The Way."
Unfortunately since your philosophy rejects all interpretatioins that do not line up with your view of a loving Jesus, however much the Jesus of the Bible is multi-faceted in His character and not just loving, one can never have a meaningful discussion with you about what the Bible says. Precisely because you will reject all things said that do not line up with your view.

The very thing you accuse true Christians of doing (i.e. not being open to seeing things differently) is in fact the very exact thing you do!

Quote:
...But since you seem more interested in proselytizing and not enlightenment . . . I leave it to you. I have no interest in proselytizing anything.
Not only do you reject all things said that do not line up with your idea of a "loving" Christ but then you go and accuse me and other Christians of doing something we are not (proselytizing at least on this thread) and having no interest in being enlightened about spiritual truth.

I most definitely do have a desire to be further enlightened about spiritual truth but a desire that you will never acknowledge. Because to you...no such desire exists in the hearts of those who do not accept your "enlightment".

How in the world can anyone have any meaningful discussion with you about spiritual truth if there is no authority outside your own self that can be appealed to in the case of a disagreement?

No one can discuss spiritual truth with a person like yourself who will not accept even the possibility of anything else being true unless it lines up with his own philosophy of religion.

My philosophy of spirituality is based on something outside of myself. The Bible. As such it can be checked by others and what I believe may be proved wrong about what any set of particular verses say.

Your belief, given that it comes from inside of you and from nothing outside of you, cannot be corrected by anyone. It is your belief.

Your belief is like a fortress that cannot be assailed and brought down. Because you hold all the cards. You hold all the ropes that could be used to climb up to your fortress. You control who can and who cannot enter your fortress. You even determine the weather there. You are in full control of everything regarding your belief. And you are accountable to no one but yourself.

To you MysticPhD the very essence of Christian truth as contained in the words of the Bible is a threat. Because if you so much as open the door to the possibility that your inner belief could be mistaken in even the minutest point...your whole house of cards could come tumbling down such that you may in fact find yourself spiritually bankrupt and in need of a Saviour instead of being so spiritual "enlightened" as you think yourself to be.

Your thinking is not humble or enlightened and it most certainly is not Christian!

Carlos
 
Old 03-04-2009, 05:01 PM
 
22,874 posts, read 10,812,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
I most definitely do have a desire to be further enlightened about spiritual truth but a desire that you will never acknowledge. Because to you...no such desire exists in the hearts of those who do not accept your "enlightment".
The enlightenment you say you seek cannot be obtained without a thorough knowledge of yourself and how your mind comes to "know" what it knows and believe what it believes . . . how that differs from our ancestors thousands of years ago . . . and what is the source of the negative human emotions and motives falsely attributed to God by those ancestors. Nothng in the bible is a threat to me or my views . . . as I have reconciled it ALL quite nicely. It is the mindless literal reading and interpretations that should feel threatened by reality. My belief comes from a wider array of sources outside of me than yours and I can accept the possibility of error . . . but NOT from bible literalists or fundamentalists . . . who are not remotely humble or enlightened. My humility is realistic not false and my views are based on testable premises AND scripture.

Of course, since your current "state of mind" seeks Jesus and God in love . . . it isn't much of a stumbling block . . . although the tendency to intolerance, exclusion and assuming God's mantle as judge of your fellow humans is a major flaw. Nevertheless . . . as I said . . I will leave you to congratulate each other on your beliefs. Meanwhile . . . I will trust in Jesus to determine whether or not I am a true Christian . . . not you Carlos.
 
Old 03-04-2009, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Living in the San Diego area
1,039 posts, read 1,294,571 times
Reputation: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
...as I said . . I will leave you to congratulate each other on your beliefs. Meanwhile . . . I will trust in Jesus to determine whether or not I am a true Christian . . . not you Carlos.
As well you should MysticPhD. But the Jesus you trust in is not the Jesus spoken of in the Bible by any reasonable reading of the text.

Now getting back to what the Bible says about being a Christian....my apologies for taking us off track a bit but I did not want anyone to wrongly conclude that a simple reading of the text in the Bible was insufficient for arriving at a truly God honoring understanding of what it means to be a Christian.

Carlos
 
Old 03-04-2009, 06:58 PM
 
9,999 posts, read 8,714,542 times
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The original intention of this thread is as follows:

Quote:
With the overly-abusive term, "Christian," I thought we as born again believers could actually define what it truly means to be a true Christian, or born-again in Christ.
I have been born again in Christ, so therefore I am perfectly welcome under the premise of this thread to express my views on "what it truly means to be a Christian". Please stop trying to close the door on us, Carlos.

What bothers you is that my experience as a Christian is not yours, and that difference scares you because you want to be able to define yourself tribally against others and in absolutes.

Although I was accused of doing this by those who misinterpreted me, I never said the Bible was wrong or following it isn't one way of being a born again in Christ. I welcome your views on the matter and a discussion of what being 'born again' in Christ means to you.

I will not, however, be cast out of a discussion on the subject simply because you believe your way is the ONLY way to be born again in Christ's love.

MysticPhD and I have obviously had experiences far beyond what you have had, and I understand that it's difficult to grasp that. But, this is a discussion forum on being "born again" and that is what I am on a far more mystical level than perhaps you are comfortable given your experience in the world, but I still am.

I, personally, believe that many of the admonitions in the Bible about not trusting your inner self or not having direct spiritual experiences were written by men trying to control others. Many have been visited by Mary throughout the world and it is well regarded in annals of Catholicism.

No, I do not take the Bible literally. My journey has moved beyond any book or faith into the realm of experience verifiable and testable within myself and for myself.

No man or woman has the authority to question that experience in Christ or to purge it from a discussion entitled "Are you born again?" simply because it differs from your own.

You probably wave a flag and yell for freedom and liberty in the political context. Consider extending that principle to the spiritual and removing the interference of a governing body in the free market exchange of ideas.

I will back out of this thread. Have your discussion to, as MysticPhD said, "congratulate yourselves on your belief". Not a lot of growth doing that, but I guess that's what you want.
 
Old 03-04-2009, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Cornelius
3,665 posts, read 6,370,468 times
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Carlos, Donn Kupp, Fundamentalist, and msshipmate:

Thank you so much for stepping in and defending the Word. Indeed, that was the purpose of this thread--to define Christianity by Scripture, not by fuzzy feelings. It amazes me that someone says they are Christian based on external sources or experiences, but with no real connection to what the Bible says. Sure, these people may be spiritual, but being spiritual does not make you a Christian.

What I am finding in these threads is a common trend of New Age spiritualism. This has infiltrated so many churches that are getting caught up in post-modernism. Post-modernism is the driving force in the Emergent Church Movement, which welcomes New Age mysticism, redefines the Gospel, and pushes ecumenism among other apostate teachings. Common names involved in this movement include Eugene Peterson, Rick Warren, Dallas Willard, Tony Campolo, Mark Driscoll, Richard Foster, Todd Bentley, Bill Hybels, Ken Blanchard, Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch, Ted Haggard, Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, and Rob Bell.

We are seeing this major push of heretical and apostate teachings and understandings because of the days in which we live. We are in the last days of the Church Age that is represented by the 7th church in Revelation known as Laodicea. Jesus had nothing good to say about this church, which is the dominant form today. We will only see this apostasy grow in the days to come. People no longer hold to the Bible as God's final authority, much less do they consider Christ as the only path to the Father.

To those who do not consider the Bible valid, I have this thought for you: do you really think a Sovereign and Living God would allow a flawed text to go through centuries and even millenia without being corrected? Do you think He would allow false teachings to pass from generation to generation? Do you think that God would let His children hold to teachings that do not line up with what He "really" wants for us?

I am sorry that some of you may be offended by what Scripture says. But this is something that you must come to terms with. We are not to lean to our own understandings regarding truth for this is why God gave us His ultimate blueprint on paper (the Bible). You who claim these extrabiblical experiences have no moral foundations for which to base your claims. You can adjust your understandings based on what you believe for yourself, and you have no authority to support your claims except for you! Again, you may certainly have a spiritual life, but by no means is it Biblical and by no means does it give you salvation through Jesus Christ. His plan has already been defined by His word, and nothing can substitute for this.

My claims here are not arrogant, not authoritative, and I don't claim to have all the answers. But what I do claim to have is the spiritual and absolute truthful backing from the very foundation that defines being born again, which further defines what it means to be a "true" Christian--and that is the Bible!

Last edited by carolina_guy; 03-04-2009 at 07:20 PM..
 
Old 03-04-2009, 07:08 PM
 
9,999 posts, read 8,714,542 times
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There is nothing "New Age" in what we speak. It is the oldest wisdom the world has ever known.

We are not offended by what Scripture says. We are offended by your forcing your interpretation as the ultimate interpretation of what it means.

good day.
 
Old 03-04-2009, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Cornelius
3,665 posts, read 6,370,468 times
Reputation: 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly View Post
There is nothing "New Age" in what we speak. It is the oldest wisdom the world has ever known.

We are not offended by what Scripture says. We are offended by your forcing your interpretation as the ultimate interpretation of what it means.

good day.
It is most certainly New Age. And how else would you interpret the Scriptures I posted in the OP?
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