The Deception of Contemplative Spirituality/Mysticism and the Threat to Christianity (believer, dogma)

[june 7th]

Originally Posted by carolina_guy

June, it was no assumption on my part. I have read in a previous post of yours that you are not a Christian. And are you saying you read the teachings of Thomas Merton? He was one of the leaders of this apostasy!!

Carolina guy, get a grip! (Which June says in the most affectionate of natures, truly!) --Because June wants us both to understand something of importance here...

Let me ask you something:

Whether hypothetical or not, here's the question:

Which would be preferable to you?

June remaining a nonbelieving atheist, or June becoming a Christian due to her having read Thomas Merton, Paul Tillich, Soren Kierkeegard, et al?

Hypothetically so, (sans assumptions!) of course...

(Serious question.)


Take gentle care.

[aquila]

Originally Posted by carolina_guy

By reading the Word I have gained my fundamental understanding that Scripture is the inspired word of God.

So you've come to understand it on your own? Is that what you're saying?

Do you believe that every verse was dictated by God?

Originally Posted by carolina_guy

I take it to be perfect. There are no flaws. I also learn from men I believe to share my same understandings of Scripture and how it is to be interpreted.

But how do you know those men are correct? And the men that taught them...how do they know those men were correct in their understanding?

Originally Posted by carolina_guy

These include my pastor, authors, and other laymen. I use all of these resources to help me study the Word.

You're relying on the teachings and interpretations of other men. And if I may say so, there are many different "teachers" and "pastors" and "authors" and "laymen" who believe differently. How do you know who is right and who is wrong?

Originally Posted by carolina_guy

I know you feel like you have trapped me now, but you haven't.

No, actually I think you were already caught in a trap before I even started posting in this thread.

[carolina_guy]

Originally Posted by Bluefly

So long as you refer to your BELIEFS as "The Truth", your arrogance in your beliefs will lead you to feel vilified.

They are my beliefs in that they are based in Scripture. I did not make my beliefs up, they are founded in the Word. You, on the other hand, have made your beliefs up because the only basis for them is you and the ungodly spirit world you tap into.

While your intentions are just and good, you do not speak from a source of love. You speak from a source of fear - fear of judgment, fear of breaking a rule, fear of other ideas.

Au contraire. I speak from a source of love indeed. My source is the ultimate source of love, Divine Love. Without an understanding of Divine Love, no one can truly understand what it means to love at all.

Imagine if God put us here and told us everything we needed to know 2000 years ago. To what would we advance? For what purpose?

Well, He did do that. His Word is timeless. His will for us is timeless. Our purpose is to spread the Gospel, so that those who choose to believe in the Son of God might be saved.

We have only scraped the surface of what the human mind is capable of and you want us to just build a bunker and wait for Armageddon.

No, that is not what I want for us to do. I would be hiding in a bunker myself if I had this fear. But I don't. The reason I am so vocal for what I believe to be the last of the Last Days is because I do not want you or anyone else to perish. If one person, just one, can come to know Jesus as their personal Savior, it will all be worth it. Many of us are called to be watchmen: Ezekiel 33:16.

Even if you remain adherent to some version of the Bible you deem trustworthy, there are VAST levels of interpretation based on how far one is capable of delving into the esoteric. The common sense interpretation is far from the ultimate say.

When I compared your worldview to that of fundamentalist Muslims, I meant it on a more universal level than you interpreted it. You see vast differences between yourself and Islam, but I see vast similarties. For example,, in the work of philosopher Ken Wilber, you'll find that you are in the egocentric or at most ethnocentric level of development. You have not elevated yet to reach worldcentric or integral levels, and neither have fundamentalist Muslims.

In his own words:

"In the great developmental unfolding from egocentric to enthnocentric to worldcentric and higher, 70% of the world's population has not yet stably made it to worldcentric postconventional levels of development. But whether those are fundamentalist Southern Baptists in Georgia, Shin Buddhists in Kyoto, al-Qaeda Muslims in IFran,, or fundamentalist Marxists in China, they represent the vast majority of the world's population in terms of vertical development.

And please, no politically correct tsk-tsking here. I'm talking about some of my best friends and most of my family (certainly all of the cousins)." - Ken Wilber

So, you can see the obvious similarities despite surface differences regarding which group worships which savior and such.

As for the rest, let me just say that I do not doubt, Bluefly, that you are a good person. In fact, I am sure you and I could have many a colorful debate on many different topics if we knew each other personally. I do not doubt you have good intentions and I do not doubt that you believe "your way" is pure. If I have ever come across as attacking you, I am sincerely sorry for doing so. This has never been my own intentions.

I think we both have an understanding as to what each other believes, and at this point it is apparent that neither of us will budge. Having said that, I am going to continue posting in this thread with regards to the title of the OP. I will not ask you to leave the conversation, but I'm not sure what could be gained by further dialogue on this topic.

In any discussion with you in the future, I will take care to treat you with respect although we are clearly in disagreement.

[carolina_guy]

Originally Posted by june 7th

Carolina guy, get a grip! (Which June says in the most affectionate of natures, truly!) --Because June wants us both to understand something of importance here...

Let me ask you something:

Whether hypothetical or not, here's the question:

Which would be preferable to you?

June remaining a nonbelieving atheist, or June becoming a Christian due to her having read Thomas Merton, Paul Tillich, Soren Kierkeegard, et al?

Hypothetically so, (sans assumptions!) of course...

(Serious question.)


Take gentle care.

I see that you are sincere in your post, June, and I apologize for any misunderstanding.

To answer your question, we would first have to know exactly what you read, what was conveyed to you, how you understood it, and what actions you took to become a Christian as you understand it. If you were truly born again, then of course I would rejoice in the Lord and be glad!!

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by carolina_guy

Dr. Fruchtenbaum says it best in his book, The Footsteps of the Messiah. The following is his first of 4 rules and you can read the rest at this link: These are some rules of interpretation.

The Golden Rule of Interpretation:

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.

Simply put, this law states that ALL biblical passages are to be taken exactly as they read unless there is something in the text indicating that it should be taken some other way than literally.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for a modern consciousness to even remotely relate to the "common sense" of the minds in an ancient culture and time millennia ago . . . psychologically impossible! We think with language . . . so that alone would render the sense of expressions difficult. Cultural differences aggravate the problem. The inability to find equivalent expressions when translating from one language to another complicates it further.

For example . . . those raised in a Latin American lanugage and culture have no word for or understanding of the concept of compromise. The cognate "compromiso" in fact means the exact opposite. Also. their concept and use of time is not linear . . . as we use it . . . it is circular and marked by events but not specific timelines. If they commit to a delivery date . . . an American would expect them to honor the exact date. They on the other hand, consider only the commitment itself to be relevant . . . not the specific date.(Can be very frustrating for American firms dealing with South American suppliers.)

Of course, those completely ignorant of psychology and the formation of "states of mind" and cognitive conceptualizations simply have no clue and assume that their "common sense" is the same as anyone else's. That way lies true misunderstanding and apostasy . . . no matter how many other ignorant individuals agree and come to the same "common sense" conclusions.

[carolina_guy]

Originally Posted by aquila

So you've come to understand it on your own? Is that what you're saying?

Do you believe that every verse was dictated by God?

Inspired by God, yes.

But how do you know those men are correct? And the men that taught them...how do they know those men were correct in their understanding?



You're relying on the teachings and interpretations of other men. And if I may say so, there are many different "teachers" and "pastors" and "authors" and "laymen" who believe differently. How do you know who is right and who is wrong?

I don't have to agree 100% with anyone. I don't claim to have it all down 100%, and I don't think anyone can say they can either. There are certainly some things that can be left up to interpretation, namely prophecy. But there are essential doctrines that all of us agree upon, and there is no doubting what is right or wrong.

No, actually I think you were already caught in a trap before I even started posting in this thread.

Nope.

[carolina_guy]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

It is IMPOSSIBLE for a modern consciousness to even remotely relate to the "common sense" of the minds in an ancient culture and time millennia ago . . . psychologically impossible! We think with language . . . so that alone would render the sense of expressions difficult. Cultural differences aggravate the problem. The inability to find equivalent expressions when translating from one language to another complicates it further.

For example . . . those raised in a Latin American lanugage and culture have no word for or understanding of the concept of compromise. The cognate "compromiso" in fact means the exact opposite. Also. their concept and use of time is not linear . . . as we use it . . . it is circular and marked by events but not specific timelines. If they commit to a delivery date . . . an American would expect them to honor the exact date. They on the other hand, consider only the commitment itself to be relevant . . . not the specific date.(Can be very frustrating for American firms dealing with South American suppliers.)

Of course, those completely ignorant of psychology and the formation of "states of mind" and cognitive conceptualizations simply have no clue and assume that their "common sense" is the same as anyone else's. That way lies true misunderstanding and apostasy . . . no matter how many other ignorant individuals agree and come to the same "common sense" conclusions.

Spoken like a true psychologist with a carnal mind.

[Bluefly]

Well, there ya go. Carolina_guy can be sweet and endearing. Whodathunkit!

Alright - I'll leave you alone. There is no real conversation on this with you, anyway. You believe what you believe. What I've experienced is simply a mastery of the Force - an ability to attract the opportunities and resources to live my highest potential on this planet. I have been given extraordinary insights into how to build a society that actually works for all of life - eliminates abortion, raises the poor, protects the wildlife, ends pollution. They shatter the boundaries of science and spirituality and offer ways for us to live in peace. So, if that's not Christ's work and I'm being deceived, then I'll live the lie because I'll do far more for my fellow man this way than your way. I'll have a pretty solid ground to stand on if when I die some guy starts whining that I was supposed to spend my time worshipping him instead of helping the world end poverty and abortiions and ecological destruction and wars.

In all honesty, it's truly uncanny how things fall in place far beyond my cognizant control. Everyday I experience miracles. If you're ever interested in having a conversation about it, hit me up. Otherwise, think of me when you're being lifted into the air by unseen mystical forces from the spiritual realm come the rapture. I'll probably be taking someone's flat screen who won't be needing it anymore.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by carolina_guy

Spoken like a true psychologist with a carnal mind.

The carnality of fundamentalists is so palpable and overpowering . . . it makes the achievement of spiritual maturity virtually impossible. Recognizing actual spiritual maturity would seem to be beyond their capabilities . . . let alone achieving it.

[Bluefly]

^^
my boy's wicked smaht!