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I follow belief systems to their basic foundation and that's my cross to bear as it doesn't allow me to ride fences. It's a little much to go into right now but in THEORY all Christian fundamentalists believe pretty much the same thing concerning God's intent to have all who are unbelievers at death tormented throughout eternity. Some temper it to separation or annihilation. Yet fewer see universal reconciliation which does have some heavy scriptural support.
I see a progression of understanding in the Bible AND hidden mysteries. Literalists see a infallible book and a world that went out of control by free-will which God is itching to destroy.
It may shock some to know that I am a Bible nut - literally have spent many many full days lost in it's pages. But I don't see there what some do.
I'd love to share more when time allows.
I would say first and foremost the Bible is God's love letter to his creation. In its pages is seen a God whose mercy triumphs over judgment.
That doesn't negate that God is just. Judgment in its purest form exists in God, it is who he is. However, his mercy triumphs over judgement time and time and time again. Even within the Old Testament narrative, God patiently dealt with his people and poured out his mercy on them before judgment was meted out.
In the New Covenant, God's righteous judgment was fully met in Christ. Christ came not to condemn the world, but that the world thru him might be saved (John 3:17).
The word MIGHT is interesting here. Shows that there is still a choice on man's side in the matter. In God's economy, the issue has been settled once and for all in the cross. The sins of all were dealt with there.
Because of this, I don't see it as God condemning any unbeliever to hell. The lifeline has been thrown out, the escape route clearly defined, the way to God has been fully established thru the cross. Yet scripture calls the cross a stumbling block and Jesus, the chief cornerstone, as a rock of offense. Many reject God, reject Christ, reject the new life made available to them. They are choosing their damnation. God has made the way out, they refuse that way, refuse his love, and thus choose to remain in damnation. Their choice.
I am not a five point Calvinist, guess that is obvious. More of a 3.5 point Calvinist, but the Calvinists say its all five or none.
When it comes to those who have never heard the gospel, I am probably more liberal than my fundamentalist roots would hold. I am probably closer to your belief system in this than some of the fundies. But I am reminded of the scriptural command for us to go and preach, for how will they know if we don't? My Baptist roots still run deep.
Keep in the word Firstborn, God will guide us and perfect our understanding of Him if we remain humble and teachable. None of us has a corner on the whole truth and won't until we see him face to face.
I am not a five point Calvinist, guess that is obvious. More of a 3.5 point Calvinist, but the Calvinists say its all five or none.
Heck...I don't even know how to tell the difference between a five pointer and a 3.5 pointer LOL. So to me Saintmarks...well...there is nothing obvious about what kind of pointing Calvinist you are.
Hopefully we can all just be Christianists...if you know what I mean
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When it comes to those who have never heard the gospel, I am probably more liberal than my fundamentalist roots would hold. I am probably closer to your belief system in this than some of the fundies. But I am reminded of the scriptural command for us to go and preach, for how will they know if we don't? My Baptist roots still run deep.
I understand about one's roots. For sure. But better to strip ourselves of all denominational biases I think .
I would say first and foremost the Bible is God's love letter to his creation. In its pages is seen a God whose mercy triumphs over judgment.
That doesn't negate that God is just. Judgment in its purest form exists in God, it is who he is.
Then shouldn't it read "God is judgment. He who does not judge does not know God, for God is judgment"
I personally have no problem with good judgment. When judgment is executed then everything is made right. The oppressors fall - the humble are exalted - excellent!
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Originally Posted by Saintmarks
However, his mercy triumphs over judgement time and time and time again. Even within the Old Testament narrative, God patiently dealt with his people and poured out his mercy on them before judgment was meted out.
In the New Covenant, God's righteous judgment was fully met in Christ. Christ came not to condemn the world, but that the world thru him might be saved (John 3:17).
The word MIGHT is interesting here. Shows that there is still a choice on man's side in the matter. In God's economy, the issue has been settled once and for all in the cross. The sins of all were dealt with there.
Check the Greek on that old english 'might'. It doesn't mean our modern 'maybe'. It simply speaks of empowerment.
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Originally Posted by Saintmarks
Because of this, I don't see it as God condemning any unbeliever to hell. The lifeline has been thrown out, the escape route clearly defined, the way to God has been fully established thru the cross. Yet scripture calls the cross a stumbling block and Jesus, the chief cornerstone, as a rock of offense. Many reject God, reject Christ, reject the new life made available to them. They are choosing their damnation.
Well, they are following their carnal nature which is 'damned' (decreed wrong) again - check the Greek.
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Originally Posted by Saintmarks
God has made the way out, they refuse that way, refuse his love, and thus choose to remain in damnation. Their choice.
Actually, if you want to be scriptural - it is their condition of blindness which prevents healing.
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Originally Posted by Saintmarks
I am not a five point Calvinist, guess that is obvious. More of a 3.5 point Calvinist, but the Calvinists say its all five or none.
They're rough. Just like Johnny C. himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks
When it comes to those who have never heard the gospel, I am probably more liberal than my fundamentalist roots would hold. I am probably closer to your belief system in this than some of the fundies. But I am reminded of the scriptural command for us to go and preach, for how will they know if we don't? My Baptist roots still run deep.
Keep in the word Firstborn, God will guide us and perfect our understanding of Him if we remain humble and teachable. None of us has a corner on the whole truth and won't until we see him face to face.
Pointing out words in scripture that shows man's free will and choice in following Christ. That is why I pointed out I'm not a Calvinist. I realize there are differences in the translations and purity of meaning within the greek, but the choice is still ours. I agree with the Calvinist that it is God opening our eyes, he assumes the burden to come to us, we don't "find" or "discover" God, he reveals himself to us.
It is those that he reveals himself to that still love themselves and their ability to save themselves -- or refusal to admit that they need saving that I am referring to. All that in reponse to your earlier posts about fundies and a God ready to pounce and punish.
Carlos,
I am in a loving, lively non denom church now. Don't put stock in any one denomination. However, I am eternally grateful for my SBC background that gave me a love for God's word and a passion to preach the gospel and share the love of Christ with the lost.
Location: Went around the corner & now I'm lost!!!!
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Originally Posted by tkdmom
I'm stocked up on food, water and misc. supplies. It's good to be stocked up on supplies, you just never know when you will need them. I don't believe that the Lord is going to destroy the US, there are far too many praying saints here. I beleive the Lord is my deliverer, and even though ten thousand shall fall at my side, and a thousand at my righthand it shall not come near me. I have an expected end, and its not to be destroyed in a nuclear war, or by fires or whatever it is they say is coming. I let the holy spirit lead me, I listen to that still small voice in my spirit. I guess I'm an outside-the-box type of believer, I dunno !
No, you are not. The Lord put on a journey to study with him ONLY for three years (4 to5 hours a day) over ten years ago. Because of that, I have a totally different understanding of the Lord and that the spirit will guide you. He will drive you to do things that most people won't understand; the spirit tells you what to do but he will not always explain to you why and he will fore warn you many times years in advanced and if it is urgent it will tell you to do it "now". Always in that still small voice.
Location: Went around the corner & now I'm lost!!!!
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Reputation: 1243
Has any of the saints stop to think that we together can have a major affect on what is and what is to come? Is not the Lord waiting for us to become ONE? Why do you think Satan spends soo much time keeping us divided so that we do not become unified? There is POWER in our unity!
Note when the Lord was about to destroy the Jews for making themselves a golden calf. Moses stepped in and ask the Lord to refrain from destroying his people...and the Lord did. Intercessory prayer is needed from the saints and for the saints and for those God has called out of the world. Yeshua left of a beautiful example of how to pray just before his death. In John Chapter 17 Yeshua prays for 1. himself, 2. his disciples 3. ALL believers (us and those to come after us)
Come on saints, my heart is braking here. God did not put us hear to suffer without a cause but to bring down heaven to earth. That's what the Lord's Prayer is all about "...thy kingdom come , thy will be done, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN..." Please I beg of you, see God's plan in all of this; not man's.
Has any of the saints stop to think that we together can have a major affect on what is and what is to come? Is not the Lord waiting for us to become ONE? Why do you think Satan spends soo much time keeping us divided so that we do not become unified? There is POWER in our unity!
Note when the Lord was about to destroy the Jews for making themselves a golden calf. Moses stepped in and ask the Lord to refrain from destroying his people...and the Lord did. Intercessory prayer is needed from the saints and for the saints and for those God has called out of the world. Yeshua left of a beautiful example of how to pray just before his death. In John Chapter 17 Yeshua prays for 1. himself, 2. his disciples 3. ALL believers (us and those to come after us)
Come on saints, my heart is braking here. God did not put us hear to suffer without a cause but to bring down heaven to earth. That's what the Lord's Prayer is all about "...thy kingdom come , thy will be done, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN..." Please I beg of you, see God's plan in all of this; not man's.
He said we will feel it in the article, and to stay faithful...the past two days, bad dreams of death, waking up crying....We must pray....
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Oh my...
