Catechism 841 (Jehovah, preaching, sinners, mysticism)

[effie g-tad]

Originally Posted by Oakback

Alpha,

I deeply respect you as a Christian.

But you know me, I'm not one to get into scriptural ping pong.

No doubt, we could play for a long time. And I'm sure you could type faster than me.

I'm sure I can guess what your arguements will be, and I'd respect them.

But at the end of the day, I'm still going to believe that ABBA does not wish to loose any of His kids.

my for you - today, just as the sunshine is breaking through the clouds ...

[carolina_guy]

Originally Posted by DNick

Go to Genesis, God created everything. Not everything expect Muslims, and non-believers.

Yes, God created everything, including those of all religions. But this doesn't remove the fact that Christ said Himself that all must go through Him to get to the Father. Why are you rejecting the words of Jesus?

[Alpha8207]

Originally Posted by juj

Did God not create Adam and Eve? (Genesis) Is not Abraham their decendent? Was not Isaac (Jews, Christians) and Ishmael (Muslims) his decendent? Do I need to go on?

Yes you do.

Maybe take a peek at John Chapter 1 and then get back to me. If someone (DNick) is going to speak for someone else (God and Oakback) then he ought to be able to verify his claims with scripture.

We are all Christians, right? (You, me, CGuy, DNick, etc)

Originally Posted by Oakback

Alpha,

I deeply respect you as a Christian.

But you know me, I'm not one to get into scriptural ping pong.

No doubt, we could play for a long time. And I'm sure you could type faster than me.

I'm sure I can guess what your arguements will be, and I'd respect them.

But at the end of the day, I'm still going to believe that ABBA does not wish to loose any of His kids.

I agree that God does not want anyone to perish but we are adopted into the family of God through Christ.

Outside of Christ we are outside of God's family.

It's just something that jumped out at me and I think you know me well enough to know I wasn't 'looking for a fight' but biblical Truth should be of utmost importance to all of us.

[carolina_guy]

Does this sound like the same God?

"They say, 'Accept the Jewish or the Christian faith and you shall be rightly guided.' Say, 'By no means! We believe in the faith of Abraham, the upright one. He was no idolater.'" (Surah 2:135)

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)

"Say, 'Obey Allah and the apostle.' If they give no heed, then truly, Allah does not love the unbelievers." (Surah 3:29)

"Men take authority over women... As for those who are disobedient, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them." (Surah 4:34)

"Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your words..." (Surah 4:43)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:104)

"They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mary. they declared: 'We have put to death the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of God.' they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did...they did not slay him for certain. God lifted him up to him..." (Surah 4:157-158)

"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Unbelievers are those who say: 'God is one of three.' There is but one God. If they do not desist from so saying, those of them that disbelieve shall be sternly punished." (Surah 5:73)

"The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind 'Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?' 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could I ever say that to which I have no right?" (Surah 5:116)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 9:12)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:29)

"The Christians say: The Christ is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them." (Sura 9:30)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"And say: All praise is due to Allah, WHO HAS NOT TAKEN A SON and WHO HAS NOT A PARTNER in the kingdom."(Sura 17.111)

"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:20-21, 29, 88-89)

"NEVER DID ALLAH TAKE TO HIMSELF A SON, and never was there with him any (other) god . . ." (Sura 23:91)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176)

[juj]

Originally Posted by carolina_guy

Does this sound like the same God?

"They say, 'Accept the Jewish or the Christian faith and you shall be rightly guided.' Say, 'By no means! We believe in the faith of Abraham, the upright one. He was no idolater.'" (Surah 2:135)

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)

"Say, 'Obey Allah and the apostle.' If they give no heed, then truly, Allah does not love the unbelievers." (Surah 3:29)

"Men take authority over women... As for those who are disobedient, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them." (Surah 4:34)

"Believers, do not approach your prayers when you are drunk, but wait till you can grasp the meaning of your words..." (Surah 4:43)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:104)

"They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mary. they declared: 'We have put to death the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of God.' they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did...they did not slay him for certain. God lifted him up to him..." (Surah 4:157-158)

"The Jews and Christians say: 'We are the children of God and His loved ones.' Say: 'Why then does He punish you for your sins?" (Surah 5:18)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Unbelievers are those who say: 'God is one of three.' There is but one God. If they do not desist from so saying, those of them that disbelieve shall be sternly punished." (Surah 5:73)

"The God will say: 'Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind 'Worship me and my mother as gods besides God?' 'Glory to You, 'he will answer, 'how could I ever say that to which I have no right?" (Surah 5:116)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 9:12)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:29)

"The Christians say: The Christ is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them." (Sura 9:30)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"And say: All praise is due to Allah, WHO HAS NOT TAKEN A SON and WHO HAS NOT A PARTNER in the kingdom."(Sura 17.111)

"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:20-21, 29, 88-89)

"NEVER DID ALLAH TAKE TO HIMSELF A SON, and never was there with him any (other) god . . ." (Sura 23:91)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176)

Hey, I didn't say I agree with the Islam religion. I don't. The question was posed if they are also God's children. The Catholic Church believes that they are. Many a person has separated themselves from God's Truth and have come back. Is an ex-Christian not still a child of God? Many, if not most Muslims had no possible chance of hearing the Word of Jesus. Is that their fault. Mercy and forgiveness is a wonderful thing.

[Oakback]

Originally Posted by Alpha8207

Yes you do.

Maybe take a peek at John Chapter 1 and then get back to me. If someone (DNick) is going to speak for someone else (God and Oakback) then he ought to be able to verify his claims with scripture.

We are all Christians, right? (You, me, CGuy, DNick, etc)



I agree that God does not want anyone to perish but we are adopted into the family of God through Christ.

Outside of Christ we are outside of God's family.

It's just something that jumped out at me and I think you know me well enough to know I wasn't 'looking for a fight' but biblical Truth should be of utmost importance to all of us.

Yes Alpha, we are fellow Christians.
And yes these are extremely important doctrines we are wrestling with.
We should start with the premise that we are brothers and sisters in Christ, with love for one another and work these things out with the sole purpose of one day seeing each other in heaven were we can say...

see.. I told you so.

I agree, with scripture when it says that Christ is the only way to the Father.

But... WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

Seriously, what does that mean? Yes I understand one must be "born again". We must be a new creation.

I know this. I've lived it, by the unmerited grace of a loving God. He did it, I didn't

If someone is lost forever, it's more my fault ( or our fault ) than it is theirs.

ALL people I believe want to Love, and to be Loved. And Christ is the author of Love.

It's up to us to be little Christs ( so to speak ). We should also want ( as I believe the Father does ) that we are all reconciled to Him.

Let's face it, the Spirit of Love instructs us as we absorb God's word. And I can't help to be convinced that any interpretation that does not include God's grace for all souls, is contrary to His plan of salvation.

[StirringWaters]

Nothing is as important as Jesus! Our Savior! All this arguing over who has the better church. Not one church building/denomination in the world today is what Jesus set up...nor His apostles.

This divisiveness is not what Jesus came to create/fulfill. Denominations? One church calling itself the one true church? Disgraceful. It is not Biblical.

We are believers in Christ!

My soul aches for all of us... Have a good day in the Lord, everyone from every denomination.

[carolina_guy]

Originally Posted by juj

Hey, I didn't say I agree with the Islam religion. I don't. The question was posed if they are also God's children. The Catholic Church believes that they are. Many a person has separated themselves from God's Truth and have come back. Is an ex-Christian not still a child of God? Many, if not most Muslims had no possible chance of hearing the Word of Jesus. Is that their fault. Mercy and forgiveness is a wonderful thing.

So, if we are all God's children, are you saying all go to heaven? And what exactly is an ex-Christian?

p.s. And then what is the point of the Great Commission if we are all God's children anyway?

[Alpha8207]

Originally Posted by Oakback

Yes Alpha, we are fellow Christians.
And yes these are extremely important doctrines we are wrestling with.
We should start with the premise that we are brothers and sisters in Christ, with love for one another and work these things out with the sole purpose of one day seeing each other in heaven were we can say...

see.. I told you so.

I agree, with scripture when it says that Christ is the only way to the Father.

But... WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

Seriously, what does that mean? Yes I understand one must be "born again". We must be a new creation.

I know this. I've lived it, by the unmerited grace of a loving God. He did it, I didn't

If someone is lost forever, it's more my fault ( or our fault ) than it is theirs.

ALL people I believe want to Love, and to be Loved. And Christ is the author of Love.

It's up to us to be little Christs ( so to speak ). We should also want ( as I believe the Father does ) that we are all reconciled to Him.

Let's face it, the Spirit of Love instructs us as we absorb God's word. And I can't help to be convinced that any interpretation that does not include God's grace for all souls, is contrary to His plan of salvation.

I believe there is provision for those who never 'hear' the gospel.(I think it is in Romans 1)

But I do not believe that someone who has been exposed to the Truth of the Gospel and rejects it is 'saved'.

And again, the only thing that caught my attention in your post was the 'we're all God's children comment.'

Regarding Jesus:

He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. John 1:10-13

Emphasis added

[carolina_guy]

Originally Posted by Oakback

Yes Alpha, we are fellow Christians.
And yes these are extremely important doctrines we are wrestling with.
We should start with the premise that we are brothers and sisters in Christ, with love for one another and work these things out with the sole purpose of one day seeing each other in heaven were we can say...

Amen, brother.

If someone is lost forever, it's more my fault ( or our fault ) than it is theirs.

No, it is not your fault if you presented the Gospel to them. It is up to them to make a decision. Our only commandment regarding this is to spread the Gospel, not to save people. The HS does that.

And I can't help to be convinced that any interpretation that does not include God's grace for all souls, is contrary to His plan of salvation.

So, you are indeed saying that Jesus died for everyone's sins (which I agree, He did) AND everyone is saved because the work is complete? Or are you saying that His plan of salvation is free to anyone who asks for it?