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Old 03-13-2009, 11:59 PM
 
Location: Cornelius
3,662 posts, read 8,530,923 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
The bible is only as valuable as the person's understanding who is reading it.

In some cases the written word can be a lazy legal substitute for actually knowing God.
Of course merely reading the Word is not all that will make you grow or even understand it. One must allow the Holy Spirit to guide you when you read. When we do understand the Word and apply it to our lives, this is when we come to know God and live according to His will.
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Old 03-14-2009, 12:09 AM
 
Location: Georgia native in McKinney, TX
6,906 posts, read 9,594,157 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
The bible is only as valuable as the person's understanding who is reading it.

In some cases the written word can be a lazy legal substitute for actually knowing God.

Scriptures in the hands of an unbeliever, especially one with an agenda, is a dangerous thing.

A believer bound by the law who does not seek God on his face and spend time hearing his voice is not a safe person to hang around with either.

However, knowing God outside of a solid doctrinal foundation based on scripture is not a safe person to hang with either. In fact, in most instances, when dealing with major life issues, I will take the legalist's advice over the airy fairy believer without a foundation in the word.

Firstborn, I have enjoyed your posts. I feel your frustration with legalists that have no life of the Spirit in their walk. Why, tho, do you jump to the opposite ditch? A ditch is a ditch is a ditch.
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Old 03-14-2009, 12:53 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,568,240 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Scriptures in the hands of an unbeliever, especially one with an agenda, is a dangerous thing.

A believer bound by the law who does not seek God on his face and spend time hearing his voice is not a safe person to hang around with either.

However, knowing God outside of a solid doctrinal foundation based on scripture is not a safe person to hang with either. In fact, in most instances, when dealing with major life issues, I will take the legalist's advice over the airy fairy believer without a foundation in the word.
Even as a Christian Universalist (which I have always been - post-atheism) I pretty much took your view above. Now? Not so much. I'm not afraid anymore to live outside of the structure of the religion of Christianity. And yes, I know 'real' Christianity is not a religion but I will turn that around and say that real relationship with God is not Christianity. It's knowing God as Christ knows God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saintmarks View Post
Firstborn, I have enjoyed your posts. I feel your frustration with legalists that have no life of the Spirit in their walk. Why, tho, do you jump to the opposite ditch? A ditch is a ditch is a ditch.
Thanks for asking - great question (made me think!). The 'D' word (ditch) is popping up here quite a bit lately.

It is probably because I belonged to/worked in one of the finest/real/loving/bible based/honest/evangelical/genuinely caring for people/Spirit filled congregations in the world for many many years and realized that STILL something was missing and terribly out of touch with reality.

Many straws combined to break the camel's back.

The doctrine of getting magically transported off the planet - God's planet (yes, it is His) so He can obliterate it (no He's not) was one straw.
The conservative/republican/Christian movement was probably another one of the straws. End time paranoia another. The final straw was the doom and gloom doctrine of God's wrath poised and waiting to burn up the masses (and them cast them into an eternal lake of fire). That one almost took my teenage daughter out. Yes, out as in - depression and then 'check out'.

That's when I 'came out' about universalism and when my 'Christian ministry' ended and my 'God ministry' continued.

These are NOT hateful people I went out from even though I did encounter some hate and anger because some believed I was "calling God a liar" (I'm not). Overall they are awesome people. They are highly INDOCTRINATED people though. Indoctrinated with blood and guts and doom and gloom and eternal fire torture pits. Even though that was NEVER the central focus - it is still there as a foundation. And from time to time it would rear it's ugly head. All through bible literalism.

So... I left it all behind. 32 years. What have I found?

God is quite busy OUTSIDE of Christianity as well as within. My words here are as scandalous as "I have not found so great a faith - no, not in Israel".

Some of my best friends are fundies and I still work with the local outreaches in my neck of the woods but only the ones that give practical help to the hurting and I no longer put dogma - any dogma - over practical expressions of God's love and amazing grace. God's heart in the earth is to break human oppression. And even to break the abuse of other creatures (animals). To stop slavery and injustice.

I have found the fruit of the Spirit in places that are shocking. Outside of "Israel".

God to Peter: "Do not call that which I have cleansed unclean".

Hope this helps. Thanks for asking - your love and concern shows
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Old 03-14-2009, 03:52 AM
 
1,577 posts, read 3,267,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolina_guy View Post
I think God can do what is necessary to help us in our walks. If in your scenario, then yes, God's will would still be done for that person if that person sought God's will. But why would you waste the most valuable resource we have to grow closer to God?
You didn't address his whole question.

He said what about a time? Like when before the Bible was written? How would those people seek a God that hadn't been addressed yet? (Pre-Christ years)
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Old 03-14-2009, 07:10 AM
 
Location: Tulsa
2,529 posts, read 3,792,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackyfrost01 View Post
You didn't address his whole question.

He said what about a time? Like when before the Bible was written? How would those people seek a God that hadn't been addressed yet? (Pre-Christ years)
Those people had the Mosaic law.
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Old 03-14-2009, 11:36 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,344,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolina_guy View Post
I know one thing, I wouldn't want to be in a church where they teach from a piece of paper, or tell me a bunch of stories.
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Old 03-14-2009, 11:57 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,555,893 times
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Saint & Firstborn - hope you guys see this post. Very deep and sincere posts and I greatly enjoyed them.
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Old 03-14-2009, 12:21 PM
 
1,597 posts, read 1,580,623 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolina_guy View Post
I think God can do what is necessary to help us in our walks. If in your scenario, then yes, God's will would still be done for that person if that person sought God's will.
Amazing how much that sounds like a Catholic belief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carolina_guy View Post
Of course merely reading the Word is not all that will make you grow or even understand it. One must allow the Holy Spirit to guide you when you read. [emphasis by Aquila] When we do understand the Word and apply it to our lives, this is when we come to know God and live according to His will.

And yet again I still can't help but wonder why the Holy Spirit would lead different people/Protestant denominations to a different understanding/interpretation about something in the Bible.
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Old 03-14-2009, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Cornelius
3,662 posts, read 8,530,923 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquila View Post
Amazing how much that sounds like a Catholic belief.
Why does that have to be a Catholic belief? Why can't we just call it a Christian belief? God's ways are not our ways and we can't put Him in a box. Think about all the Christians in Communist China who haven't seen a Bible in decades, but they are believers. What do you think God does for them? Surely He has a way to guide them without them having access to the Word.


Quote:

And yet again I still can't help but wonder why the Holy Spirit would lead different people/Protestant denominations to a different understanding/interpretation about something in the Bible.
aquila, not every interpretation is guided by the Holy Spirit.
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Old 03-14-2009, 01:31 PM
 
1,597 posts, read 1,580,623 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carolina_guy View Post
Why does that have to be a Catholic belief? Why can't we just call it a Christian belief? God's ways are not our ways and we can't put Him in a box. Think about all the Christians in Communist China who haven't seen a Bible in decades, but they are believers. What do you think God does for them? Surely He has a way to guide them without them having access to the Word.
But you do put him in a box, CG. Don't you see that? It's obvious in your debates with MysticPHD, your myriad posts about the "emerging church", and in various other places with your very own words, such as here, in which you say
Quote:
This thread is meant for those who adhere to the premillenial return of Christ, who will come after the Great Tribulation.

I hope to use this thread as a learning tool to expose these false teachings...


and here where you say
Quote:
The reason why your beliefs are wrong is because they go against everything in Scripture.
and here where you say
Quote:
It is clear you have also been deceived, and I pray you will remove the scales from your eyes.
You forcefully assert that those who don't believe the way you do are lost. Yet you're saying you can't put God in a box. It seems like you DO put God in a box.

You say if a person/society doesn't have the Bible, they can still be guided by the Holy Spirit. The reason I said it sounded like a Catholic belief is because the Catholic Church believes, and states in the catechism, that a person can attain eternal salvation if they've never heard of Jesus, insomuch as they strive to seek God and do His will according to the dictates of their conscience. It sounds like you are agreeing with that. Yet you are vehemently opposed to what the catechism says. Apparently you think it's right in the places you agree with, but wrong in the places you don't agree with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carolina_guy View Post
aquila, not every interpretation is guided by the Holy Spirit.
So then I'll ask you....how do you know which one is? Each of those denominations claim their interpretation is guided by the Holy Spirit, and they each claim Biblical support to back it up.
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