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Old 03-21-2009, 03:27 AM
 
Location: Living in the San Diego area
1,042 posts, read 2,172,054 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
You speak of natural things here. There are many layers of meaning in spiritual words. The letter kills.
There aren't spiritual words and natural words firstborn888. There are just words. Some talk of spiritual things. Others talk of natural things. But they are all just words.

Which are meant to be understood in the language in which they are written.

What do you mean by "the letter kills"? What does that mean to you?

I assume you don't believe that the little letters dancing across our respective computer screens kills anyone

Carlos
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Old 03-21-2009, 03:30 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 6,618,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
Are you angry MysticPhD?

Carlos
"be angry and sin not".

Carlos, we have been through pages on another thread about 'wrath'. We were talking about actions that rip and tear and burn people alive being attributed to God's core nature.

Clearly the 'wrath' we are discussing here is not frustration over being misunderstood and misrepresented as you are trying to bring out here in Mystic.
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Old 03-21-2009, 03:34 AM
 
Location: Living in the San Diego area
1,042 posts, read 2,172,054 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
"be angry and sin not".
So you think, based on the verse portion you quoted, that it's okay to be angry as long as we don't sin?

I think Mystic might differ with you on that given that he thinks all anger, any anger is...well...primative and unworthy of a Christian.

Carlos
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Old 03-21-2009, 03:34 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 6,618,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
There aren't spiritual words and natural words firstborn888. There are just words.
Congratulations! You have just pinpointed the source of all our misunderstandings.

"just words" eh?
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Old 03-21-2009, 03:40 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 6,618,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
So you think, based on the verse portion you quoted, that it's okay to be angry as long as we don't sin?

I think Mystic might differ with you on that given that he thinks all anger, any anger is...well...primative and unworthy of a Christian.

Carlos
Like I pointed out - "anger", in English can typify many different things. An emotion that results in someone yelling at their dog or an emotion which causes someone to go on a wild killing spree. It covers a broad range of very different levels of states of mind. You MUST read beyond the simple literal into the metaphorical and applicational to understand any of this in depth.
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Old 03-21-2009, 04:01 AM
 
Location: Living in the San Diego area
1,042 posts, read 2,172,054 times
Reputation: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Congratulations! You have just pinpointed the source of all our misunderstandings.

"just words" eh?
Yup. The words I am writing you are just words. Many of my words talk about spiritual things but that does not make them spiritual words. Nor does one need to see anything figurative in them to understand what I say. One just need to understand English and ask a question or two to better determine what I meant to say.

If we could not thus communicate we could not be on this forum discussing anything.

The words I use are written by me expressing my thoughts to those who care to read them.

The words in the Bible are likewise words on a page (or on the internet or on whater medium one reads them on). But those words express God's thoughts about spiritual matters. Just like my words or the words of anyone else speaking about spiritual matters expresses a person's opinion about spiritual things.

There is nothing special about understanding words. Other than some people don't want to understand certain words because of this or that reason which negates what various words so plainly state.

While you might decry my literalism as being some kind of evil thing the truth is that we must all process words literally or we could not communicate or understand any words at all. That is not to say that some things are not meant to be taken figuratively. Some things are meant to be taken figuratively and literally so. As a figure of speech or not at face value as an allegory or some other figurative construct.

But all of us communicate by stringing words together into sentences such that we are able to be understand to the degree that we construct our words so as to make sense in the language in which we write them.

God is no different in his use of words in the Bible. He uses words to communicate His thoughts to us. And just as you and I can read a newspaper and understand what it is saying to us so to...we can read the bible and understand what God is saying to us.

Unless we are unwilling to take the words in the Bible no differently than we would take any other words we read. At face value.

If we are unwilling to take the words in the Bible at face value then we will embrace any and every idea that will allow us to ignore what they say and call such ideas more enlightened. Not because we are indeed more enlightened but just because we don't want to face whatever truth there is in those words that we don't want to hear.

Quote:
John 3:19
"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
Quote:
Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Understanding the words in the Bible can be hindered by the practice of unrighteousness in our lives. By the desire to avoid accountability to a holy God.

Just like Adam we may want to hide and not let the Light of His Truth judge our actions and motivations.

Quote:
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
There is nothing hard about understanding what the Bible says. Nor does it take an advanced degree to understand it. Rather it takes a right heart that is willing to face what God says through it.

Carlos
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Old 03-21-2009, 04:03 AM
 
Location: Living in the San Diego area
1,042 posts, read 2,172,054 times
Reputation: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Like I pointed out - "anger", in English can typify many different things. An emotion that results in someone yelling at their dog or an emotion which causes someone to go on a wild killing spree. It covers a broad range of very different levels of states of mind. You MUST read beyond the simple literal into the metaphorical and applicational to understand any of this in depth.
You didn't answer my question. Based on the verse which you quoted a portion of...is there an anger which is not sin?

Carlos
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Old 03-21-2009, 04:32 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 6,618,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
Yup. The words I am writing you are just words. Many of my words talk about spiritual things but that does not make them spiritual words.
I agree. It does not make them spiritual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
Nor does one need to see anything figurative in them to understand what I say. One just need to understand English and ask a question or two to better determine what I meant to say.
The bible uses types and figures THROUGHOUT And many many disagree as to their meaning. What universe are you reading the bible from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
If we could not thus communicate we could not be on this forum discussing anything.

The words I use are written by me expressing my thoughts to those who care to read them.
Awww, Carlos! Didn't you know God enjoys a good mystery? "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but to search them out is the honor of kings ".
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
The words in the Bible are likewise words on a page (or on the internet or on whater medium one reads them on). But those words express God's thoughts about spiritual matters. Just like my words or the words of anyone else speaking about spiritual matters expresses a person's opinion about spiritual things.
"Neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned" (yes, the quotes mean it is a scripture .)
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
There is nothing special about understanding words.
"Neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned"
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
Other than some people don't want to understand certain words because of this or that reason which negates what various words so plainly state.
"Neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned"
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
While you might decry my literalism as being some kind of evil thing the truth is that we must all process words literally or we could not communicate or understand any words at all. That is not to say that some things are not meant to be taken figuratively. Some things are meant to be taken figuratively and literally so. As a figure of speech or not at face value as an allegory or some other figurative construct.
Really? Ya' think???
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
But all of us communicate by stringing words together into sentences such that we are able to be understand to the degree that we construct our words so as to make sense in the language in which we write them.
"Neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned"
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
God is no different in his use of words in the Bible. He uses words to communicate His thoughts to us. And just as you and I can read a newspaper and understand what it is saying to us so to...we can read the bible and understand what God is saying to us.
Gotcha' - just read it and you know God. That's amazing. Not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
Unless we are unwilling to take the words in the Bible no differently than we would take any other words we read. At face value.
Okay then, join the preterist club
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
If we are unwilling to take the words in the Bible at face value then we will embrace any and every idea that will allow us to ignore what they say and call such ideas more enlightened. Not because we are indeed more enlightened but just because we don't want to face whatever truth there is in those words that we don't want to hear.
Any and every idea huh? Wow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
Understanding the words in the Bible can be hindered by the practice of unrighteousness in our lives. By the desire to avoid accountability to a holy God.
That's it!!! As long as lazy people only want to interact with a book and not go any deeper then they can just stay with there shallow literal concepts. No greater understanding - no greater accountability. Excellent observation!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
Just like Adam we may want to hide and not let the Light of His Truth judge our actions and motivations.
Yup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
There is nothing hard about understanding what the Bible says.
Really? Broad statement. I've heard (literally) thousands of differing understandings of the revelation of John in my 52 years. What planet did you say you were from again???
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
Nor does it take an advanced degree to understand it.
Just the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
Rather it takes a right heart that is willing to face what God says through it.
And the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post

Carlos
Firstborn
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Old 03-21-2009, 04:44 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 6,618,224 times
Reputation: 851
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlos123 View Post
You didn't answer my question. Based on the verse which you quoted a portion of...is there an anger which is not sin?

Carlos
Yes. Wrath against literalist nonsense is righteous indignation


Really, if Paul thinks it can be done.... it must be.

but "Love is not provoked" ('easily' was added by guilty translators!!!)
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Old 03-21-2009, 08:08 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 5,154,249 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
The standard is set in place - which is perfect love. We all fail that standard and bear the 'wrath' of that failing. When we finally give up and die to ourselves then the wrath has done it's job.

If you see God angrily throwing bolts of wrath toward those who are failing the standard you miss the whole point. As mystic says, Jesus nature and actions showed the true heart of God which was 'hidden from generations past' but later revealed.
So do you think Jesus bore the wrath Of God? I sure don't believe He failed ANY standard that His Father set before Him.
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