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I agree, it is punishment thus the wrath of God fell on Jesus. No theologian, pastor etc.... truly understands what Jesus meant when he said those words. We just have a small understanding because Jesus saves Christians from that and we will never, ever, ever know how that felt but unbelievers who die in their sins will know how it feels.
Really? Where using the Word does it say that? Is that all there is to the punishment phase? The forsaking? And if so, what of the "unbeliever" who never knew God, to know whether or not they were "forsaken"? To the unbeliever, it is a wash, because they had no knowledge one way or the other as God did not reveal Himself to them. To the believer, it seems to be more of a "get out of jail free card".
The unbeliever who doesn't know the Law, cannot willfully sin, for by the knowledge of the Law sin is made manifested, otherwise, as Paul says in Romans, they are a law unto themselves.
I want to get back to the discussion though. Where is the Wrath of God the Father shown towards Jesus who bore the sin of the whole world. Can someone please answer this, without guessing games? Either it is, or it isn't.
The unblemished Lamb is not in question. The Blood of the Lamb, is not in question.
The only question is this. Where was God the Father's wrath upon his Son towards ALL this sin that His Son supposedly TOOK UPON HIMSELF? Taking away the sin of the world is different than bearing them upon Himself.
Because this is cornerstone belief in Christianity, as we know it today. I am questioning this doctrine.
If there is no wrath involved, then what is punishment for sin? If there is punishment for sin, and Jesus TOOK and BORE ALL the sin of the world on Himself, then what was the punishment for this massive, MASSIVE, sin He was undertaking upon himself?
Either there is punishment for sin, or there isn't. And if there is, then by claiming that Jesus bore the sin for us, then what was His punishment.
I don't know what Jesus' punishment was.. some say He descended into hell and tasted hell for us.. but: He rose again!
But .. Jesus died to make a way for those who wanted to escape eternal damnation. The punishment He took on Himself was for the sins of the whole world.. but only so that those who would accept the sacrifice would be free. There is still punishment coming for those who do not repent and believe. Sorta like Dr. Pepper's free soda giveaway.. promised to all, inventory enough for all, but only those who made the effort to request one actually got one.
Jesus didn't die for Satan's sins.. the devil still is doomed. Likewise, those who do not accept the sacrifice Jesus made, will join in the devil's eternal punishment.
"PROPITIATION"...I love that word..I just like saying it...it's fun...here say it, Pro-pi-ti-a-tion
I don't know much about you Fundamentalist with respect to your Christian views but if there is a way to describe a love for the Word...you certainly found a way to describe it.
You love the word PROPITIATION eh? That's a new one on me but oh how appropriate. I love what that word stands for too
The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." John 3:35-36
If you reject Christ, God's wrath is still on you. If you believe in the Son, He has taken that wrath for you.
I am not questioning Christianity, I am questioning her doctrines.
I encourage you to continue to do so HotinAZ. I think it's a wonderful thing to approach the things of God with an inquisitive mind that does not just automatically except things because...well...because that's the way it is.
As long as, and this is not really directed at you, we don't question so much that we cease to live by faith.
To punish the innocent and let the guilty go free is unjust! It wrongs the innocent, the guilty, and God himself. It would be the worst of all wrongs to the guilty to treat them as innocent. The whole device is a piece of spiritual charlatanry—fit only for a fraudulent jail—delivery. If the wicked ought to be punished, it were the worst possible perversion of justice to take a righteous being however strong, and punish him instead of the sinner however weak. To the poorest idea of justice in punishment, it is essential that the sinner, and no other than the sinner, should receive the punishment. The strong being that was willing to bear such punishment might well be regarded as worshipful, but what of the God whose so-called justice he thus defeats? If you say it is justice, not God that demands the suffering, I say justice cannot demand that which is unjust, and the whole thing is unjust. God is absolutely just, and there is no deliverance from his justice, which is one with his mercy. The device is an absurdity—a grotesquely deformed absurdity. To represent the living God as a party to such a style of action, is to veil with a mask of cruelty and hypocrisy the face whose glory can he seen only in the face of Jesus; to put a tirade of vulgar Roman legality into the mouth of the Lord God merciful and gracious, who will by no means clear the guilty. Rather than believe such ugly folly of him whose very name is enough to make those that know him heave the breath of the hart panting for the waterbrooks; rather than think of him what in a man would make me avoid him at the risk of my life, I would say, ‘There is no God; let us neither eat nor drink, that we may die! For lo, this is not our God! This is not he for whom we have waited!’ But I have seen his face and heard his voice in the face and the voice of Jesus Christ; and I say this is our God, the very one whose being the Creator makes it an infinite gladness to be the created. I will not have the God of the scribes and the pharisees whether Jewish or Christian, protestant, Roman, or Greek, but thy father, O Christ! He is my God. If you say, ‘That is our God, not yours!’ I answer, ‘Your portrait of your God is an evil caricature of the face of Christ.’
To believe in a vicarious sacrifice, is to think to take refuge with the Son from the righteousness of the Father; to take refuge with his work instead of with the Son himself; to take refuge with a theory of that work instead of the work itself; to shelter behind a false quirk of law instead of nestling in the eternal heart of the unchangeable and righteous Father, who is merciful in that he renders to every man according to his work, and compels their obedience, nor admits judicial quibble or subterfuge. God will never let a man off with any fault. He must have him clean. He will excuse him to the very uttermost of truth, but not a hair’s-breadth beyond it; he is his true father, and will have his child true as his son Jesus Christ is true. He will impute to him nothing that he has not, will lose sight of no smallest good that he has; will quench no smoking flax, break no bruised reed, but send forth judgment unto victory. He is God beyond all that heart hungriest for love and righteousness could to eternity desire.
The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." John 3:35-36
If you reject Christ, God's wrath is still on you. If you believe in the Son, He has taken that wrath for you.
I don't see where the Son TOOK the wrath. It would seem that Father has given everything TO Jesus.
But the verse does give some light! The wrath remains on them? Does this mean the sinner already HAS the wrath for it to remain? Is it simply separation from Father? Or the trials and tribulations on this journey.
I encourage you to continue to do so HotinAZ. I think it's a wonderful thing to approach the things of God with an inquisitive mind that does not just automatically except things because...well...because that's the way it is.
As long as, and this is not really directed at you, we don't question so much that we cease to live by faith.
Carlos
It is by my faith in Father and His Son, my Brother the King, that I question religion and her theologies.
It is clear where I standon this issue of wrath . . . it is a purely human characteristic and no part of God ever. CONSEQUENCES are consequences . . . because that is the way the universe IS by God's will. To suggest that a consequence of our failure to voluntarily do what is necessary to avoid one of these consequences is somehow a punishment by God is absurd! To repeat my earlier example . . . voluntarily walking off the top of a twelve story building does not incur God's punishment when you die from the impact!
To suggest that a consequence of our failure to voluntarily do what is necessary to avoid one of these consequences is somehow a punishment by God is absurd!
You've got a point there. In eternity, no one will be able to blame God for the reason they are in hell.
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