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Old 03-25-2009, 03:14 AM
 
Location: Texas
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VP,
I noticed in the link that "Augustine of Hippo (AD 354-430) converted to Christianity from Manichaeism, in the year 387. This was shortly after the Roman Emperor Theodosius I had issued a decree of death for Manichaeans in AD 382 and shortly before he declared Christianity to be the only legitimate religion for the Roman Empire in 391".

This is a very interesting thing as St. Augustine is probably the most influential Christian theologian of all time. Worthy of some more study.
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Old 03-26-2009, 10:44 PM
Status: "Randall Flagg:Obama's Ebola Czar" (set 19 days ago)
 
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Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
VP,
I noticed in the link that "Augustine of Hippo (AD 354-430) converted to Christianity from Manichaeism, in the year 387. This was shortly after the Roman Emperor Theodosius I had issued a decree of death for Manichaeans in AD 382 and shortly before he declared Christianity to be the only legitimate religion for the Roman Empire in 391".

Exactly. What did Christ say about the false prophets?

Quote:
"Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are savage wolves.You will know them by their fruit. Grapes aren't gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles, are they?
Matthew, 7:15-16

Now, who sounds more like a false prophet to you, judging by their fruit? The Nicenes, who oppressed people of different faiths, created the Inquisition, the Crusades, the massacre of Native peoples etc (and, on top of that, crappy "contemporay worship Music") Or the Gnostics...tolerant, unassuming, and never harming anyone? Even when they had the numbers and the resources to go around killing and oppressing people, as in the case of the Manicheanist and the Cathars, they practiced kindness and tolerance.

Who's fruit is more that of a false prophet? People like the Cathars, or people like the Spanish Inquistion?

That alone is proof to me that Gnosticism is the true form of Christianity.
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Old 03-26-2009, 10:49 PM
 
Location: Nowhere'sville
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Exactly. What did Christ say about the false prophets?



Matthew, 7:15-16

Now, who sounds more like a false prophet to you, judging by their fruit? The Nicenes, who oppressed people of different faiths, created the Inquisition, the Crusades, the massacre of Native peoples etc (and, on top of that, crappy "contemporay worship Music") Or the Gnostics...tolerant, unassuming, and never harming anyone? Even when they had the numbers and the resources to go around killing and oppressing people, as in the case of the Manicheanist and the Cathars, they practiced kindness and tolerance.

Who's fruit is more that of a false prophet? People like the Cathars, or people like the Spanish Inquistion?

That alone is proof to me that Gnosticism is the true form of Christianity.
Wow, I've never heard it put quite like that! You make a compelling arguement.
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Old 03-26-2009, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
The Nicenes, who oppressed people of different faiths, created the Inquisition, the Crusades, the massacre of Native peoples etc (and, on top of that, crappy "contemporay worship Music")
LoL. There is some good worship music out there but I agree that some of it is a new form of torture
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
That alone is proof to me that Gnosticism is the true form of Christianity.
Well, it seems like they did have the love thing down which is #1. Still, I think the Gnostic view of the material world being created by another God is off even though I can understand the reasoning.

I hope to see your responses to my longer post on the previous page.
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Old 03-28-2009, 01:51 AM
Status: "Randall Flagg:Obama's Ebola Czar" (set 19 days ago)
 
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Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
I absolutely believe that we can the Father. Not in His absolute fullness but in His essence. Isn't that what Jesus taught? That we could know the Father as He did?
Yes, we can "know" the father, as in come to him, but to understand and comprehend it's vastness? No. We can know it, but cound never be able to truly fathom it.


Quote:
Agreed - above speech but, in essence, we ARE with the Father spiritually in Christ and it is the most personal thing ever. You seem to understand this when you speak of a 'real relationship'.
Yes, we have a relationship with the father, and yet, we can never hope to fathom it. We are like someone with no mechanical knowledge at all driving a car: we can work with it, know it's there, but have no idea who it works.


Quote:
Again, as a Christian Panentheist and universalist I do understand that the fall was all in the plan. But I do believe there is one creator of all.
One creator, but what kind of a creator? Why plan to make men "fall" and allow all that torment? Why? Why not plan differently? And what was the fall? OF all the things to punish man for, wanting knowledge? Why was the god of the garden so megalamanical? Were we not made in his own image? Well then, why not allow us to finish the job and evolve to be like him?







I'll check the link.


Quote:
This is the rub right here. I think this is the 'mind' searching for explanations for the experience of good vs. evil as I referred to in the earlier post.
Everything starts with the mind on some level or another. We think about accepting a religion and about god at the center of the universe. It all starts with a thought.

But in the end it is not the thought alone that liberates us, but the Pneuma, the Holy Spirit, the divine spark within that does. The "book" part of Gnosis is only one step on the road to absolution. The final step is the Kingdom of Heaven it's self.

We are nothing without the Heavenly Father, it is from it that we have the hope of ever lasting life within the Light once more.

So it is not just the mind that does it.

Quote:
It's an attempt to escape the concept that our good loving creator WANTED us to experience all this for a reason. I do understand the difficulty in accepting this but I don't think it's an accurate conclusion to say that our creator is evil.
Why? Why not just us, but why create a world based on suffering? None of this was necessary. The world could have been based on any principal and yet, the very nature of life is pain and death. But to what end?

Before men existed, there was pain, after men have died out, there will still be pain. It is the basis of life.

Quote:
What you stated is an unbalanced (and rather dark) view of life as well as there is much more to life in this world than suffering. Think of it as a test where gold is purified through the fire of experience. There are AWESOMELY wonderful things to experience in creation and the challenge of overcoming the Tree OTKOGAE with perfect love.
Yes, there is some good in life, even if the very nature of life is to suffer. I remember reading a story by Robert E Howard, a very racist fellow. Well, I liked the story allot, even if it was by a racist. Even the worst people can do some good every now and again.
The creator is like that. There is some beauty in creation, yes, I agree, and life is not all hell. The basis of all life, however, is suffering.
Quote:
There is a virtue in making decisions on purpose which cause US pain because of a greater thing - love. Where would the virtue be if every decision brought only bliss? For the experience and challenge of overcoming fear and death
There is another question that should be asked: what if we weren't here? What if we were all born into Nirvana? What if trasncendents was something that we did not have to fight for, but something we just had?

Then there would be no us and no GOD, but rather a continuity of the fullness, the pleroma, for ever and ever.

We are conscious beings seperated from GOD, and it is that seperation, in and of it's self, that is the evil.


Quote:
Even in CG you said everything turns out well in the end, right? I guess the big mystery CG is trying to answer is "what is the source of evil and suffering?". I don't think they are seeing the big picture here.
Not just to find the answer why is there evil, but to over come the evil. Evil is overcome by knowing the heavenly father. As it says in "The gospel of Truth":
Quote:
This ignorance of the Father brought about terror and fear. And terror became dense like a fog, that no one was able to see. Because of this, error became strong. But it worked on its hylic substance vainly, because it did not know the truth. It was in a fashioned form while it was preparing, in power and in beauty, the equivalent of truth. This then, was not a humiliation for him, that illimitable, inconceivable one. For they were as nothing, this terror and this forgetfulness and this figure of falsehood, whereas this established truth is unchanging, unperturbed and completely beautiful.
Life is suffering. The suffering is caused by Yaldabaoth, the creator. The suffering can be alleviated by finding the Father. The Father is found by developing the inner spark, Pneuma, the Holy Spirit, "the God within". Gnosis developes the Holy Spirit. Gnosis is gained by following the teachings of Christ.

That is the big picture of the Gnostics.


Quote:
See? That's the challenge and the 'glory which follows" I speak of. Not to grow beyond our 'created purpose' but to grow beyond PHASE ONE of our created purpose by the one true God and Creator of all.
The OT simple states that we were created to follow the rules, nothing more. The kingdom of heaven came much later.


Quote:
I submit to you that the tyranny is a creation of our own mind - NOT the creation of the original creator (our Father God).
Even mindless things, like insects, suffer and die in the world. The basis of all life is suffering, not just human life.
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Old 03-28-2009, 02:50 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post

One creator, but what kind of a creator? Why plan to make men "fall" and allow all that torment? Why? Why not plan differently? And what was the fall? OF all the things to punish man for, wanting knowledge? Why was the god of the garden so megalamanical? Were we not made in his own image? Well then, why not allow us to finish the job and evolve to be like him?
We got what we ate - the knowledge of good AND evil. What you call tyranny and punishment etc. is the fruit of the contrasting opposites.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Everything starts with the mind on some level or another. We think about accepting a religion and about god at the center of the universe. It all starts with a thought.
My point about the mind is that the mind searches for logical answers. If it cannot discover them (for whatever reason) it comes up with possible scenarios. So, what I'm saying is that the Gnostic concept of a lesser 'god' creating us may not be pure revelation of the absolute truth but an attempt to explain evil and suffering.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
But in the end it is not the thought alone that liberates us, but the Pneuma, the Holy Spirit, the divine spark within that does. The "book" part of Gnosis is only one step on the road to absolution. The final step is the Kingdom of Heaven it's self.


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Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post

Why? Why not just us, but why create a world based on suffering? None of this was necessary. The world could have been based on any principal and yet, the very nature of life is pain and death. But to what end?

Before men existed, there was pain, after men have died out, there will still be pain. It is the basis of life.
It's the damn tree thing: Good/evil, life/death, pleasure/pain, day/night. The fruit of the tree OTKOGAE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Yes, there is some good in life, even if the very nature of life is to suffer.
Again - the nature of life is good and evil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
The creator is like that. There is some beauty in creation, yes, I agree, and life is not all hell. The basis of all life, however, is suffering.
Living under the tree is made up of polar opposites. So the basis (AISI) is suffering and triumph, death which leads to life, despair which leads to joy etc. Without this polarization then this physical universe would cease to exist as well as life as we know it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
There is another question that should be asked: what if we weren't here? What if we were all born into Nirvana? What if trasncendents was something that we did not have to fight for, but something we just had?
Soldiers LOVE a good fight
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Then there would be no us and no GOD, but rather a continuity of the fullness, the pleroma, for ever and ever.

We are conscious beings seperated from GOD, and it is that seperation, in and of it's self, that is the evil.
BINGO!!! The lie of separation. The experience of separation/alone-ness/hopelessness. Read what Jonah prayed in the fish's belly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post

Not just to find the answer why is there evil, but to over come the evil. Evil is overcome by knowing the heavenly father. As it says in "The gospel of Truth":

Life is suffering. The suffering is caused by Yaldabaoth, the creator. The suffering can be alleviated by finding the Father. The Father is found by developing the inner spark, Pneuma, the Holy Spirit, "the God within". Gnosis developes the Holy Spirit. Gnosis is gained by following the teachings of Christ.
The reason I find this conversation interesting is that I do understand that this present darkness did not/does not emanate from the core of our Father but is actually the opposite of Him.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
That is the big picture of the Gnostics.
The OT simple states that we were created to follow the rules, nothing more. The kingdom of heaven came much later.
Actually I see the garden as an obvious set up and so we were created to experience the tree of knowledge and ultimately eat of the tree of life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post

Even mindless things, like insects, suffer and die in the world. The basis of all life is suffering, not just human life.
I still say it's a pessimistic view. Diamonds are created under pressure and duress. In your view nothing is accomplished by our experience here and the only thing we need is to escape this life. That is vanity/vexation of spirit and is only ONE side of the coin. Experiencing the passing from death into life is an awesome awesome thing. If we stayed in the garden of innocence it would just be a pretty prison (as you pointing out). The rough and tumble and REAL excitement is participating in this grand show.
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Old 03-28-2009, 03:52 AM
 
Location: Wherever women are
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Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
VP,
I noticed in the link that "Augustine of Hippo (AD 354-430) converted to Christianity from Manichaeism, in the year 387. This was shortly after the Roman Emperor Theodosius I had issued a decree of death for Manichaeans in AD 382 and shortly before he declared Christianity to be the only legitimate religion for the Roman Empire in 391".

This is a very interesting thing as St. Augustine is probably the most influential Christian theologian of all time. Worthy of some more study.
I butted out of this thread for I don't see any value/point/direction locking horns with Gnostics. They still believe in Christ, differing only in varying detail. I never really feel the urge to parachute in as long as some misguided Funkymonker/kool-aid atheist/quasi-agnostic runs amok jaymouthing Christian concepts in irrelevantly varying contexts.

But this message is too captivating to ignore. I feel compelled to offer my two cents. This is not an impaling critique, so feel free to keep those kalashnikov rifles pointed to the ground

There's been gross historical misunderstanding about Christian Roman emperors who proscribed non-Nicene proponents of Christianity. This is like 'Yes and No'.

Please don't kid yourself on the emperor saint. If someone thinks any caesar/augustus after Constantine metamorphosed into a hyper-devout savonarola, you would wanna slow down on that alacrity.

Sectarian divisions tear an empire. The emperor seeks to quell dissidents. If this is the external concentric circle, some Nicene fathers unfortunately constituted the inner one.

Theodosius had to persecute. He sought to use the type of Christians who would most fit his purpose. The Nicenes were cookie-cutter made for his agenda.

Why?

Let's look at the problems in the empire:
Centuries of strife, continuous war with the Persians and Parthians. The kingdom of Zenobia. The constant jewish problem. The problem of the Goths. A monarchy suddenly divided again, between Valentinian and Valens. Theodosius enters the scene right here as soon as Valens is killed in the Battle of Adrianople.

Let's do some gnostic geography now - easily spread across north africa, the aegean, anatolia, asia minor, egypt, judaea, etc.,

Also note that these gnostics were least present in the European mainland of Gaul, Italia and Germania. This does not matter, Rome is an ex-capital.

Constantinople is the capital now, the new sphere of control and all the gnostic areas are easily scattered around the capital. They were pestering pockets of problems which had to be gotten rid of.

And why Manichaeans in particular? They weren't total christians at all. They were a mix of the followers of Zoroaster, Jesus, Hinduism and proto-Islam, all rolled into one study of polemics and rhetoric. And they were Persians. The memory of persians imprisoning Valerian was never forgotten and they bore the brunt of Roman revenge throughout.

Augustine was not born in this Manichaean religion. He joined the sect in his late teens. Looking into his history he meddled with a lot of sects of the day.

And let's not forget why he even embraced Nicene Christianity. The life of Antony of the desert changed his life.

And since Julian the apostate re-instated paganism and issued tolerance, the "donatists" re-established themselves in North Africa, having been exiled by the Constantines.

Donatists were a sect founded by Donatus Magnus, in protest against traditors. Traditors were traitors of the faith who renounced, turned in Christians and Christian texts to Diocletian's centurions during the great pre-constantine Christian persecution. The Nicenes forgave the traditors later on and admitted them back into the church. But the Donatists never did and were extremely hardcore in their opposition against the traditors' re-admission.

With the Donatists coming back in, Augustine became the figurehead in the polemics against the Donatists.

This was another reason why Augustine found Nicene Christianity appealing. The concept of forgiveness of blatant traditor betrayal.

It would thus be dangerous to assume that Augustine dropped Manichaeism because Theodosius outlawed it. Even then, why did he have to wait more than three years after the decree?

So he's a false prophet? That simple?

Contrary to popular belief, the early fathers and the emperors never worked in apple-pie order.

Can we put this DanBrownery to rest please?
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Old 03-29-2009, 08:47 PM
Status: "Randall Flagg:Obama's Ebola Czar" (set 19 days ago)
 
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Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
We got what we ate - the knowledge of good AND evil. What you call tyranny and punishment etc. is the fruit of the contrasting opposites.
The other side is this: being alive, and not one with GOD, is also contrasting opposites. The seperation we have in the material world is all his creating.

Quote:
My point about the mind is that the mind searches for logical answers. If it cannot discover them (for whatever reason) it comes up with possible scenarios. So, what I'm saying is that the Gnostic concept of a lesser 'god' creating us may not be pure revelation of the absolute truth but an attempt to explain evil and suffering.
Indeed it is absolute truth: the world is an illusion and the illusion of life is all one big joke created so that a cruel creator could watch us suffer for his own amusment. That indeed is a revelation of absolute truth, dismal as it might be. But, as Christ said:

Quote:
Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
Gospel of Thomas, 2

To discover the true nature of life is disturbing, but after realizing that there is a greater reality above this one, one marvels, and after marvelling, crowned with this knowledge, we can rule over this material world of illusion.




Quote:
It's the damn tree thing: Good/evil, life/death, pleasure/pain, day/night. The fruit of the tree OTKOGAE.


Again - the nature of life is good and evil.
And that brings up the question: If life worth it if evil can exist? would be better to not exist in the first place? I say, yes, non-existince is preferrable to existince. It would be better to not be born at all than be born in a world of pain. By "born" I mean given a fleshy body and forced to dwell in the black iron prison of Earth. If we were never born, and only were pieces of GOD attached to a part of the continuity of GOD, we would never know pain and only know the ONE.

Dismal? Yes, it does sound that way, and I do not apologize for it. The concept that "life is beautiful" is something that I could never understand.

Quote:
Living under the tree is made up of polar opposites. So the basis (AISI) is suffering and triumph, death which leads to life, despair which leads to joy etc. Without this polarization then this physical universe would cease to exist as well as life as we know it.
Polar opposites create equlibrium, which might mean balance but also means strife: the constant fight between two sides that is deadlocked, creating a equilibrium. The balance is only the dead lock of two sides of a war.

Singleness is also balance. In being one, we have balance. IF we were one with GOD in all respects from the beginning, i.e., we were never born, then we would have a peaceful balance, and not a turbulant one.

Quote:
Soldiers LOVE a good fight
I never wanted to be a soldier, but the creator gave me no choose. Like a man in Vietnam who resents being drafter, I will never forgive my creator for giving me life.


Quote:
BINGO!!! The lie of separation. The experience of separation/alone-ness/hopelessness. Read what Jonah prayed in the fish's belly.
Even out of the belly, Jonah was still seperated from GOD, in that he had a fleshy body that felt pain. We are all born in the material world away from GOD, and hence, we are all seperated from GOD. We have a loose connection, like a single thread connection, but that is all. I would much rather be a piece of the quilt then a single piece dangling by a strand.

Quote:
The reason I find this conversation interesting is that I do understand that this present darkness did not/does not emanate from the core of our Father but is actually the opposite of Him.
Then why have an opposite?

Quote:
Actually I see the garden as an obvious set up and so we were created to experience the tree of knowledge and ultimately eat of the tree of life.
I do not think so. Why not just let us wonder around from the beginning in pain? The creator wanted us to be ignorant, otherwise he would not have punished the snake as well.

Also, animals still suffered in the garden. All life is pain, and all life is suffering. This has been the rule from the beginning.

Quote:
I still say it's a pessimistic view. Diamonds are created under pressure and duress. In your view nothing is accomplished by our experience here and the only thing we need is to escape this life. That is vanity/vexation of spirit and is only ONE side of the coin. Experiencing the passing from death into life is an awesome awesome thing. If we stayed in the garden of innocence it would just be a pretty prison (as you pointing out). The rough and tumble and REAL excitement is participating in this grand show.
Pessimistic? Realistic? All in how you precieve it I suppose. I would rather not have a part in the "grand show" myself. The "pressure" is something I did not ask for and would rather be taken away.

I have noticed that most Gnostics, like me, have had some seriously horrible things happen to them in life, and that made them understand that there is not wonderful creator in charge. I was once a wonderful little boy...were was god to protect him? Nowhere.

I shall know myself and that which is above god, and slowly grow beyond the prison and towards the Kingdom of Heaven. That is my salvation, not beliefe in a god that turned his back on a eleven year old kid who prayed to him night after night.
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Old 03-30-2009, 02:05 AM
 
Location: Texas
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
The other side is this: being alive, and not one with GOD, is also contrasting opposites. The seperation we have in the material world is all his creating.
Do you understand Jesus' unity with the Father while in the material world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Indeed it is absolute truth: the world is an illusion and the illusion of life is all one big joke created so that a cruel creator could watch us suffer for his own amusment. That indeed is a revelation of absolute truth, dismal as it might be. But, as Christ said:

Gospel of Thomas, 2

To discover the true nature of life is disturbing, but after realizing that there is a greater reality above this one, one marvels, and after marvelling, crowned with this knowledge, we can rule over this material world of illusion.
Physical life is indeed a huge challenge and can be very very disturbing. May I ask how the CG view addresses the fact that the Father 'allowed' us to be born here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
And that brings up the question: If life worth it if evil can exist? would be better to not exist in the first place? I say, yes, non-existince is preferrable to existince. It would be better to not be born at all than be born in a world of pain. By "born" I mean given a fleshy body and forced to dwell in the black iron prison of Earth. If we were never born, and only were pieces of GOD attached to a part of the continuity of GOD, we would never know pain and only know the ONE.

Dismal? Yes, it does sound that way, and I do not apologize for it. The concept that "life is beautiful" is something that I could never understand.
VP, I have been to the 'bottoms of the mountains'. I have been crushed and beauty came from the crushing. I LOVE the way the apostle Paul is recorded as saying "For the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us".

This is the pattern for us AND for Christ: Suffering followed by glory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Polar opposites create equlibrium, which might mean balance but also means strife: the constant fight between two sides that is deadlocked, creating a equilibrium. The balance is only the dead lock of two sides of a war.
The paradox is that eternal life exists within time and within the darkened earth. You understand this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Singleness is also balance. In being one, we have balance. IF we were one with GOD in all respects from the beginning, i.e., we were never born, then we would have a peaceful balance, and not a turbulant one.
So we are back to square one. Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
I never wanted to be a soldier, but the creator gave me no choose. Like a man in Vietnam who resents being drafter, I will never forgive my creator for giving me life.
Another paradox. The Father is the Father of lights and creator of light. You also know this but speak as though you can't fully grasp it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Even out of the belly, Jonah was still seperated from GOD, in that he had a fleshy body that felt pain. We are all born in the material world away from GOD, and hence, we are all seperated from GOD. We have a loose connection, like a single thread connection, but that is all. I would much rather be a piece of the quilt then a single piece dangling by a strand.
Please consider looking at those verses again sometime - patiently, metaphorically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Then why have an opposite?
To come to a deeper knowledge (experientially) of the contrast between good and evil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
I do not think so. Why not just let us wonder around from the beginning in pain? The creator wanted us to be ignorant, otherwise he would not have punished the snake as well.
A shadow cannot create. It can only present an illusion of darkness and that's all. I would never refer to the darkness as 'The Creator'. Is this just semantics in how you and I perceive reality? Possibly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Also, animals still suffered in the garden. All life is pain, and all life is suffering. This has been the rule from the beginning.
If you see only that side of it then I guess that's your reality at this time. I've been there - believe me... I've been there (all the way there).
I understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
Pessimistic? Realistic? All in how you precieve it I suppose. I would rather not have a part in the "grand show" myself. The "pressure" is something I did not ask for and would rather be taken away.
Again, been there. Won't argue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
I have noticed that most Gnostics, like me, have had some seriously horrible things happen to them in life, and that made them understand that there is not wonderful creator in charge. I was once a wonderful little boy...were was god to protect him? Nowhere.
Here's the crux of the matter VP. It would seem to be as you say. I have experienced unspeakable horrors and pain (which I won't go into in a public forum) but suffice to say that I have craved death more than any other thing. But the result was (ultimately) a deeper confidence of who is really in charge - the one you call the Father of Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk View Post
I shall know myself and that which is above god, and slowly grow beyond the prison and towards the Kingdom of Heaven. That is my salvation, not beliefe in a god that turned his back on a eleven year old kid who prayed to him night after night.
You are saying you prayed to a false (small g) 'god'. Agreed. I will also concede that the image of an angry vengeful God is NOT the true picture.

Time will tell who's who and what's what. My joy is that "as we have borne the image of the earthy so shall we bear the image of the heavenly".

If you don't mind I would like to know more about:

1. Why do you believe the Father allowed you to come here (carrying His spark inside?).

2. What do you understand to be spiritual 'rebirth'.

Thanks for the conversation.
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