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are you talking about church membership rolls or the devout.
i assure you many standing in church pews will burn with the worst.
i got my asbestos suit on order.
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Hi, evidently God loves even those whom He hates and evidently His love overrules any hate that He has. We were all once His enemies and workers of iniquity. He gave Jesus for sinners, workers of iniquity. He hates sinfulness but loves the sinner, even the believer who sins. God bless.
Luke 6
27`But I say to you who are hearing, Love your enemies, do good to those hating you,
28bless those cursing you, and pray for those accusing you falsely;
29and to him smiting thee upon the cheek, give also the other, and from him taking away from thee the mantle, also the coat thou mayest not keep back.
30`And to every one who is asking of thee, be giving; and from him who is taking away thy goods, be not asking again;
31and as ye wish that men may do to you, do ye also to them in like manner; 32and -- if ye love those loving you, what grace have ye? for also the sinful love those loving them;
33and if ye do good to those doing good to you, what grace have ye? for also the sinful do the same;
34and if ye lend [to those] of whom ye hope to receive back, what grace have ye? for also the sinful lend to sinners -- that they may receive again as much.
35`But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again, and your reward will be great, and ye shall be sons of the Highest, because He is kind unto the ungracious and evil; 36be ye therefore merciful, as also your Father is merciful.
Hi, evidently God loves even those whom He hates and evidently His love overrules any hate that He has. We were all once His enemies and workers of iniquity. He gave Jesus for sinners, workers of iniquity. He hates sinfulness but loves the sinner, even the believer who sins. God bless.
Hi Shana,
It is true that God acted in love to mankind by sending His Son to die for sinful people whom he hated and was sorry he made.
Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
But does that mean that God loves Christians who return to being "workers of iniquity" after they have repented of committing sin?
I believe that you respect the Scriptures so lets see what they say:
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
As you can see, there is a conditional "IF" attached to "and my Father will love him":
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Again there is a condition attached to "shall be loved of my Father" and that condition is "he that loveth me" and who is it that Jesus said "loveth" Him? HE THAT HATH MY COMMANDMENTS AND KEEPETH THEM.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Again we see a condition attached to abiding in the love of Jesus. Ask yourself - how could a worker of iniquity be keeping the commandments of God?
Now lets look at what Jesus said about the Christians who were workers of iniquity:
Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them....But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Shana - these verses were written to and about those who called Jesus "Lord" and had experienced miracles in their lives.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Shana - I believe the Scriptures mean exactly what they say on this subject:
Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
And that includes Christians - God will say to the workers of iniquity - "I never knew you.
I realize that sounds like heresy to those who have been brainwashed by the teachings of modern Christianity but thank God for the Scriptures. So now you have to decide who you are going to believe.... Modern Christianity which says "God hates sin but loves the sinner" or the Scriptures?
It is true that God acted in love to mankind by sending His Son to die for sinful people whom he hated and was sorry he made.
Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
Hi Harold, I understand this to be an example of God condescending to us to relate to us on our level. Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, so God knew what would happen. God in His omnicience sees beginning to end, knew what would take place in the creation.Jesus even died for those people who died from the judgments of God, those who perished in the flood. Yes, Jesus died for them and He died for all mankind.
Quote:
But does that mean that God loves Christians who return to being "workers of iniquity" after they have repented of committing sin?
Yes. God is loves them. He even loves His enemies as Jesus who reveals the truth of the Father to us presented. Jesus who is in the bosom of the Father has explained the Father to us. And what did He teach us? Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you, and be merciful as your Father is in heaven is merciful. He is kind to the grateful and ungrateful. Be perfect as your Father in heaven. What did He say to those who crucified Him? Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do...
Jesus, who is the exact image of the Father, said this. What does this tell you about the love of God for His enemies?
Quote:
I believe that you respect the Scriptures so lets see what they say:
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
As you can see, there is a conditional "IF" attached to "and my Father will love him":
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Again there is a condition attached to "shall be loved of my Father" and that condition is "he that loveth me" and who is it that Jesus said "loveth" Him? HE THAT HATH MY COMMANDMENTS AND KEEPETH THEM.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Again we see a condition attached to abiding in the love of Jesus. Ask yourself - how could a worker of iniquity be keeping the commandments of God?
I believe that believers do have a father/son relationship with the Father and that there is a special bond in the family of believers. Believers have a relationship with the Father and the Father dwells within the believer. Just as the Father and the Son have an intimate relationship, we can have an intimate relationship with the Father, just as persons who belong to a family have a special bond between them. This is eonian life, however, it is evident that God loved us with agape love, before we were believers. If He did not love us, He would have never sent His Son to die for us. Jesus laid down His life for us while we were yet sinners.
Quote:
Now lets look at what Jesus said about the Christians who were workers of iniquity:
Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them....But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Shana - these verses were written to and about those who called Jesus "Lord" and had experienced miracles in their lives.
I agree, Harold, that many will be told to depart from the Lord. They may have thought that they knew the Lord and called Him Lord, but He did not know them. He says that He never knew them. They may have even worked miracles in His name, however, how could they have been miracles from Him, if He never knew them?
Quote:
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Shana - I believe the Scriptures mean exactly what they say on this subject:
Psalms 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
And that includes Christians - God will say to the workers of iniquity - "I never knew you
.
I agree, that workers of iniquity will hear the words of Jesus "Depart from Me." Workers of iniquity will not be allowed in the kingdom. They are not compatible with the righteousness of God. God is preparing a people today who are being made into His image, and this does not include iniquity. Believers are to turn away from sin and we are to be new creations in Him, lights in the world. We are not in the right with God if we are not willing live for Him, to be what He is calling us to be.
However, there are also scriptures which speak of God's love for His enemies and which speak of the eventual restoration of all to God. I believe that all evil, sin, and iniquity will be destroyed and all sinful souls will be destroyed. Sinful men will not remain in sin and be reconciled to God. The sinful man must die. There must a change. The wonderful thing is that after destruction, there is restoration. There is a scripture which says, "He turns men to destruction, and says, Return O children of men." So I don't believe that workers of iniquity will be restored to God, but that as tranformed and new creations, men will be restored to God. If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old man is to be destroyed and the new man is created in Jesus Christ our Lord.
Quote:
I realize that sounds like heresy to those who have been brainwashed by the teachings of modern Christianity but thank God for the Scriptures. So now you have to decide who you are going to believe.... Modern Christianity which says "God hates sin but loves the sinner" or the Scriptures?
I believe that the scriptures teach that God hates sin and loves the sinner. As I shared, Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. Would you agree with this Harold? We as lost sinners are dead and enslaved to sin but evidently God loves us despite our lost condition. He reached down and saw our sad condition and gave us His Son. In this aspect, His Son was given to sinners, to workers of iniquity. Jesus laid down His life for us when we were as such. Jesus laid down His life for you Harold when you were a sinner, a worker of iniquity. What does this tell you of the nature and magnitude of God's agape love for you? If He did not love you when you were a sinner, a worker of iniquity, would there be any hope? Would there be any hope for any of us? It's all about love. He loves us despite of us. Think of it like this, if you have a child and he or she willfully disobeys and rebels against you, you are not happy with that part of the child. In fact, you may become very angry with this side or aspect of his or her personality, yet you still love the child. There is more to the child than this side of him or her. The child is still of value to you. You seek to influence the child so that he or she sees the light. You still love your child. God loves us but He does not love the sin in us or we might say, the sinful man in us. But the sinful man is not all that we are. We are more than this and this is evident, because Jesus laid down His life for us when we were yet sinners. There is value in us even when we are enslaved to sin. God loves us, yes, He loves us, even when we are slaves to sin and lost in our sinfulness. Take care and God bless.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 03-23-2009 at 03:36 PM..
I believe that the scriptures teach that God hates sin and loves the sinner. As I shared, Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. Would you agree with this Harold? We as lost sinners are dead and enslaved to sin but evidently God loves us despite our lost condition. He reached down and saw our sad condition and gave us His Son. In this aspect, His Son was given to sinners, to workers of iniquity. Jesus laid down His life for us when we were as such. Jesus laid down His life for you Harold when you were a sinner, a worker of iniquity. What does this tell you of the nature and magnitude of God's agape love for you? If He did not love you when you were a sinner, a worker of iniquity, would there be any hope? Would there be any hope for any of us? It's all about love. He loves us despite of us. Think of it like this, if you have a child and he or she willfully disobeys and rebels against you, you are not happy with that part of the child. In fact, you may become very angry with this side or aspect of his or her personality, yet you still love the child. There is more to the child than this side of him or her. The child is still of value to you. You seek to influence the child so that he or she sees the light. You still love your child. God loves us but He does not love the sin in us or we might say, the sinful man in us. But the sinful man is not all that we are. We are more than this and this is evident, because Jesus laid down His life for us when we were yet sinners. There is value in us even when we are enslaved to sin. God loves us, yes, He loves us, even when we are slaves to sin and lost in our sinfulness. Take care and God bless.
Perhaps you are confusing an act of love (loved) with on going love (loveth) God acted in love towards a world he hated - he LOVED them - a single act in past time - not a present tense loveth.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God acted in love towards a world he hated - he LOVED them - a single act in past time - not a present tense loveth.
Agape love has nothing to do with affection - it is more like sacrificial duty. We are to act in love toward our enemies - obviously we have no affection for our enemies - if we did they would not be our enemies.
Did you know there is no place in the Scriptures which says that God "loveth" (present tense continues to love) that is not connected with
people who obey God?
"The LORD loveth the righteous." (Psalms 146:8)
"He loveth him that followeth after righteousness." (Proverbs 15:9)
"I love them that love Me." (Proverbs 8:17)
"...For I the LORD your God am a jealous God ...showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love Me and KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS." (Exodus 20:5-6, (2nd commandment)
Yes it is true that we cannot grasp the God kind of agape love that God would sacrifice His Son and the Son would die for a people that he despised and was sorry He had made.
The error is to assume that because God acted in love once towards people that he hated means that he has an ongoing affection for them. One has nothing to do with the other.
God destroyed all mankind in a horrible way and he is going to do it again - after the purpose of man on earth is finished - the revealing of the sons of God when Jesus returns.
Shana - when you say that Gode hates sin but loves the sinner you must completely ignore the plain meaning of this verse - I cannot do that.
Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
So the answer to the question is Yes - this verse does apply to Christians who are workers of iniquity.
HK
All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
Perhaps you are confusing an act of love (loved) with on going love (loveth) God acted in love towards a world he hated - he LOVED them - a single act in past time - not a present tense loveth.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
God acted in love towards a world he hated - he LOVED them - a single act in past time - not a present tense loveth.
Agape love has nothing to do with affection - it is more like sacrificial duty. We are to act in love toward our enemies - obviously we have no affection for our enemies - if we did they would not be our enemies.
Did you know there is no place in the Scriptures which says that God "loveth" (present tense continues to love) that is not connected with
people who obey God?
"The LORD loveth the righteous." (Psalms 146:8)
"He loveth him that followeth after righteousness." (Proverbs 15:9)
"I love them that love Me." (Proverbs 8:17)
"...For I the LORD your God am a jealous God ...showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love Me and KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS." (Exodus 20:5-6, (2nd commandment)
Yes it is true that we cannot grasp the God kind of agape love that God would sacrifice His Son and the Son would die for a people that he despised and was sorry He had made.
The error is to assume that because God acted in love once towards people that he hated means that he has an ongoing affection for them. One has nothing to do with the other.
God destroyed all mankind in a horrible way and he is going to do it again - after the purpose of man on earth is finished - the revealing of the sons of God when Jesus returns.
Shana - when you say that Gode hates sin but loves the sinner you must completely ignore the plain meaning of this verse - I cannot do that.
Psa 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
So the answer to the question is Yes - this verse does apply to Christians who are workers of iniquity.
HK
All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.
Hi there, Harold. God's agape love is always ongoing because He is agape love and He has no beginning or end. He loved us yesterday, He loves us today, and He will love us tomorrow and forever. Jesus tells us to love our enemies and to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. This is to be ongoing and not a one time event. The Father is and continues to be merciful to all people. The creation is to be delivered from the slavery to corruption and changed into the glorious freedom of the children of God. (Romans 8)Yes, this is a future event, and so this tells me that God's love for the creation is ongoing. He works all things according to the counsel of His will. Jesus will draw all to Himself, (John 12) a future event. He will reunite all to Himself (Ephesians 1)-a future event and this tells me of His love for all people. Eventually all will love Him as all will confess Him willingly, with thanks and bow to Him in adoration and praise. All evil, iniquity, sin will be destroyed when God becomes all in all. God is never described as hate but He is described as love. Take care and God bless.
Luke 6
27`But I say to you who are hearing, Love your enemies, do good to those hating you, 28bless those cursing you, and pray for those accusing you falsely; 29and to him smiting thee upon the cheek, give also the other, and from him taking away from thee the mantle, also the coat thou mayest not keep back. 30`And to every one who is asking of thee, be giving; and from him who is taking away thy goods, be not asking again; 31and as ye wish that men may do to you, do ye also to them in like manner; 32and -- if ye love those loving you, what grace have ye? for also the sinful love those loving them;
33and if ye do good to those doing good to you, what grace have ye? for also the sinful do the same;
34and if ye lend [to those] of whom ye hope to receive back, what grace have ye? for also the sinful lend to sinners -- that they may receive again as much.
35`But love your enemies,and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again, and your reward will be great, and ye shall be sons of the Highest, because He is kind unto the ungracious and evil; 36be ye therefore merciful, as also your Father is merciful.
Last edited by ShanaBrown; 03-23-2009 at 10:06 PM..
I believe that the scriptures teach that God hates sin and loves the sinner.
Shana thank you for the discussion - I understand your views and I accept that you truly believe the comment above.
From my point of view what you believe is the result of Christian Cliches such as:
"God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life"
"God hates sin but loves the sinner"
"Christians are sinners too - just forgiven"
What happens is that modern Christianity filters the Biblical verses through those cliches so that when I quote the Scripture "Thou hatest all workers of iniquity" after filtering it comes out:
"Jesus loves me that I know because the Bible tells me so"
HK
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