Sin just to BE gay? (beliefs, sinners, Christ, Kingdom)

[Bluefly]

The OP asked a simple question: why is homosexuality a sin?

Once again, all he has received is "The Bible says it. What don't you understand?"

God gave us all minds to use and expand, not just to follow orders and wait for someone to come back and unlock our cage. So, let's have some thoughtful analytical responses. There are numerous levels of interpretation of the Bible, the most primitive being literalist. Let's look beyond that level. I'm curious about this, too. I'll ask it again:

What is intrinsically sinful about two individuals who love one another with a love that could rattle the tilt of the earth expressing that love?

I have known several homosexual couples of this nature. "True love" has never had a more apt description for such people - far beyond what so many heterosexual marriages experience.

So, beyond just being told to believe it is, why is homosexuality a sin?

[Miss Shawn_2828]

Originally Posted by Jaymax

Shawn, you know better than to say "it is in plain English". You know the Bible was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek. And yes, the word "homosexual" was first used in the New Revised Standard (RSV) Bible in 1946. It's a fact that is easy to look up. It's also easy to research what scholars have to say about words like "malakoi" and "arsenokoitai" or the Sins of Sodom.

I would think that before people decided to use the Bible to condemn a whole group of people for their sexual orientation they would at least try to find out what the original writers actually wrote.

Homosexuality is spoken about in the Torah which is the Hebrew Bible. The Torah prohibits men from having sex with other men. You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is a to'evah" (Leviticus 18:22). In english, and in Hebrew (וְאֶת זָכָר לֹא תִשְׁכַּב מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה תּוֹעֵבָה הִוא)

I'm not an expert and I don't claim to be, I am studying to learn the Hebrew and Greek language so I can one day read the bible for myself. But it is proven that Homosexuality is considered a sin in the Hebrew bible. So now either people will believe that or again say that man put that in the bible.

[Ceist]

Originally Posted by shawn_2828

Homosexuality is spoken about in the Torah which is the Hebrew Bible. The Torah prohibits men from having sex with other men. You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is a to'evah" (Leviticus 18:22). In english, and in Hebrew (וְאֶת זָכָר לֹא תִשְׁכַּב מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה תּוֹעֵבָה הִוא)

I'm not an expert and I don't claim to be, I am studying to learn the Hebrew and Greek language so I can one day read the bible for myself. But it is proven that Homosexuality is considered a sin in the Hebrew bible. So now either people will believe that or again say that man put that in the bible.

You are taking it out of context of WHY those laws in Leviticus were written. That verse is with the verses about not following the idolatrous practices of the Canaanites. Have you also thought about the ritual pagan sex practices that the Canaanites performed in their temples that involved temple priests dressing up as a fertility goddess and having sex with other priests who represented the god Molech? These don't have anything to do with homosexuality or committed loving homosexual relationships. If it did, then heterosexuality would be a sin too because some people rape or are prostitutes etc etc.

And have you also thought about what the position of women was in those days? Lying with a man as one lies with a woman would be considered demeaning to another man. Like the practice of raping another man to humiliate and dominate him.

Putting it in context is just as, if not more, important than being able to translate word for word - which would be more like:

"And with a male not lie down in beds of a woman".

[Miss Shawn_2828]

Originally Posted by Jaymax

You are taking it out of context of WHY those laws in Leviticus were written. It's right in the middle of the verses about not following the idolatrous practices of the Canaanites.

"What is done in the land of Egypt, wherein you were settled, you are not to do; what is done in the land of Canaan, to which I am bringing you, you are not to do; by their laws you are not to walk, the Lord says. Because of the acts that the Canaanites were doing God did not even want His people to intermarry with them.

Deut 8 you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations.


You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a women. You can't take this out of context. LOL

The entire chapter of Lev. 18 is talking about Unlawful Sexual Relations. as the same as in the Torah.

The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.


6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD. Is this out of context.

7 " 'Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her. Is this out of context.

8 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father. Is this out of context.

9 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere. Is this out of context.

10 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you. Is this out of context.

11 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister. Is this out of context.

12 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative. Is this out of context.

13 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative. Is this out of context.

14 " 'Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt. Is this out of context.

15 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her. Is this out of context.

16 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother. Is this out of context.

17 " 'Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness. Is this out of context.

18 " 'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living. Is this out of context.

19 " 'Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period. Is this out of context.

20 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her. Is this out of context.

21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed [a] to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD. Is this out of context.

22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Is this out of context.

23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion. Is this out of context.

24 " 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "

Now are you see these verses are not out of context. And people will argue that this is OT, but the NT says the same.

The New Testament

Romans1:26-27
For this reason (A)God gave them over to (B)degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, (C)men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

1 Cor 6:9-11
Or (A)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (B)inherit the kingdom of God? (C)Do not be deceived; (D)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will (E)inherit the kingdom of God. 11(F)Such were some of you; but you were (G)washed, but you were (H)sanctified, but you were (I)justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

1 Tim. 1:8-11
But we know that (A)the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

9realizing the fact that (B)law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and (C)rebellious, for the (D)ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and (E)profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10and (F)immoral men and (G)homosexuals and (H)kidnappers and (I)liars and (J)perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to (K)sound teaching, 11according to (L)the glorious gospel of (M)the blessed God, with which I have been (N)entrusted.

[Ceist]

Originally Posted by Bluefly

The OP asked a simple question: why is homosexuality a sin?

Once again, all he has received is "The Bible says it. What don't you understand?"

God gave us all minds to use and expand, not just to follow orders and wait for someone to come back and unlock our cage. So, let's have some thoughtful analytical responses. There are numerous levels of interpretation of the Bible, the most primitive being literalist. Let's look beyond that level. I'm curious about this, too. I'll ask it again:

What is intrinsically sinful about two individuals who love one another with a love that could rattle the tilt of the earth expressing that love?

I have known several homosexual couples of this nature. "True love" has never had a more apt description for such people - far beyond what so many heterosexual marriages experience.

So, beyond just being told to believe it is, why is homosexuality a sin?

Because some Christians WANT it to be. Simple as that.

Edited to add: Witches can't be burned anymore, blacks can't be kept as slaves or kept from marrying whites anymore, women just aren't subservient enough anymore, children can't be beaten anymore, anti-semitism is frowned upon, condemning masturbators is laughed at.... so whats's left? Homosexuals.

[Ceist]

Originally Posted by shawn_2828

"

21 " 'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed [a] to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD. Is this out of context.

22 " 'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Is this out of context.

23 " 'Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion. Is this out of context.

24 " 'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 " 'Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' "

Now are you see these verses are not out of context. And people will argue that this is OT, but the NT says the same.

Thank you for posting the Leviticus verses here. You've proved the point that verses 21 and 23 are about idolatrous worship of Molech. Bestiality was used in worship of the fertility gods. And verse 22 is right in the middle between them.

And no, the NT does NOT say the same...

Of course if you want to believe it does, and choose to ignore what scholars say about the mistranslations in 1 Corinthians 6 or who Paul is talking about in 1 Romans, then go right ahead. Clearly "textual criticism" won't be an area you will be interested in studying.

[Miss Shawn_2828]

Originally Posted by Jaymax

Thank you for posting the verses here. You've proved the point that verses 21 and 23 are about idolatrous worship of Molech. Bestiality was used in worship of the fertility gods. And verse 22 is right in the middle between them.

And no, the NT does not say the same...

And you proved to be one who just refuse to believe scripture. And yes the NT does say the same.


Romans 1:26-27
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


Cor 6:9-11
Or (A)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (B)inherit the kingdom of God? (C)Do not be deceived; (D)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will (E)inherit the kingdom of God. 11(F)Such were some of you; but you were (G)washed, but you were (H)sanctified, but you were (I)justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


1 Tim. 1:8-11
But we know that (A)the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

9realizing the fact that (B)law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and (C)rebellious, for the (D)ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and (E)profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10and (F)immoral men and (G)homosexuals and (H)kidnappers and (I)liars and (J)perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to (K)sound teaching, 11according to (L)the glorious gospel of (M)the blessed God, with which I have been (N)entrusted.

So what does these scriptures mean to you?

[Timothylogan3]

It is neither black nor white. Nor do you get just saints or sinners. There is alot of grey in life. The bible condems alot of things that we do. But we do them all the same. And still call ourselves saints. So who is fooling who here? Are my sins less acceptable than yours? I love the Lord guys, but He put me in this world, that is so so full of sin, and you know what these are the cards that were dealt to me. Why should I be discriminated for being me and for something that is so beyond my control. I mean sin is beyond all of our control! Even the pope sins! We are only saved through the work of Christ and not by our own merits . Any way as I have said life is a journey, the concept of right or wrong is relative. Look amongst you, you can not even agree as to what is sin and what it is not. There are a hundred and million interpretation of scripture out there. Only one thing is crystal clear to me is that nothing is crystal clear in life. Not while everything is viewed through our changing eyes, and this sadly includes scripture.

[Miss Shawn_2828]

Originally Posted by Jaymax

Thank you for posting the Leviticus verses here. You've proved the point that verses 21 and 23 are about idolatrous worship of Molech. Bestiality was used in worship of the fertility gods. And verse 22 is right in the middle between them.

And no, the NT does NOT say the same...

Of course if you want to believe it does, and choose to ignore what scholars say about the mistranslations in 1 Corinthians 6 or who Paul is talking about in 1 Romans, then go right ahead. Clearly "textual criticism" won't be an area you will be interested in studying.

You seem to be good at not answering question. None of those scripture are out of context.

[Ceist]

Originally Posted by shawn_2828

And you proved to be one who just refuse to believe scripture. And yes the NT does say the same.


Romans 1:26-27
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


Cor 6:9-11
Or (A)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (B)inherit the kingdom of God? (C)Do not be deceived; (D)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will (E)inherit the kingdom of God. 11(F)Such were some of you; but you were (G)washed, but you were (H)sanctified, but you were (I)justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


1 Tim. 1:8-11
But we know that (A)the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

9realizing the fact that (B)law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and (C)rebellious, for the (D)ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and (E)profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10and (F)immoral men and (G)homosexuals and (H)kidnappers and (I)liars and (J)perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to (K)sound teaching, 11according to (L)the glorious gospel of (M)the blessed God, with which I have been (N)entrusted.

So what does these scriptures mean to you?

You really don't get it do you?
Those verses are ENGLISH translations.

The word "Homosexuals" is NOT a correct translation of "arsenokoitai", and "effeminate" is not a correct translation of "malakoi". They don't make sense, especially when one looks at the way the same word is used in Timothy. Just like it didn't make sense to use the same word to condemn masturbators before a translator first incorrectly translated arsenokoitai as "homosexuals" in 1946.

There is no point in debating this any further if you believe those English translations are absolutely, without question, correct. (Which it appears you do because you keep posting them.) I do not. Many scholarly biblical textural critics do not.