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Too often people are quick to judge and hate and not look deeper into anothers theology and see just where they may actually agree or disagree. This also goes along with self righteousness, too often we want to consider ourselve righteous no matter what sins we may commit and the only righteouness is that of the Lord and His working thru us, anything else, of our efforts is as dirty rags.
Generally speaking judgers and haters come from 2 camps (not always) and they are;
defenders of the faith and fundamentalists. Be cautious... I'm about to ramble.
If my/your theology is derived from only Bible knowledge with no equal emphasis on the Christian spirit then I ask; what separates us from secularists? or other false religions? our Christian Bible becomes only a moral guide in an immoral world... it becomes rules and sayings. The very essence of Christianity, that which sets us apart (holy), is manifested in the likes of Mother Teresa, C.S.Lewis, Billy Graham, St. Francis Asissi and so many other saints (believers). So what is this Christian essence that sets us "apart"? I can tell you what it ain't... it isn't just Bible knowledge.
No one is righteous, not one, for all fall short, however our testimony (here on CD) often reflects our unforgiving self righteousness. Forgiveness is the conduit Jesus built for us, and our testimony should be a pane of glass by which only God's righteousness is reveled. Here we only have words, and our fruit is reveled by how we witness to others, by what we write. We (most) have a Bible, so is it necessary to beat each other into submission with God's word?
Is it a message that condemns? judges? or convicts? We know it can be all... but isn't the Gospel "good news".
I ask with utter sincerity... does satan know scripture? (of course he does). So is it reasonable to assume he will ''use" Bible knowledge against us? if possible to fool even the elect? If satan had a tactic to love people to Christ, would that be in his nature? or would his nature be to deceive? Yes... he will come as light, (probably more like a flash light) but he will come and say "did God really say that"? followed by "listen to me". Light... , true light, exposes all, not just a limited view, or man's view.
"They will know me by my voice"... not by the words but by His voice... the very nature of His voice. What is it in God's voice that the faithful will know? and others will want? what is it? The milk drinkers might say... love! it will be love!, fundamentalist's say be afraid if you hear Him, but I believe to know God is to know grace... and how will it sound?
Maturing beyond our own understanding requires spiritual development/discernment/awaking that comes from our faith, as a result of taking the step into the abyss... a place where eyes nor intellect can help us... a place where grace is crimson and continually flowing. Grace works beyond our ability to understand, or to practice , it is a place where other religions do not know. To be blind of grace is to not know our God. Grace does not need a single thread of man's understanding to work, it is self sufficient lacking nothing, it can not come from anything other than God, satan can not work thru grace, grace will always be denied by satan, to deny the power of grace is to blaspheme the power of the atoning work of Christ.... and therefore the Holy spirit.
In Gals. chapter 1&2 the focus of these chapters is on the life of the Apostle Paul. The Judaizers had repudiated both the message of salvation by grace and the messenger, the Apostle Paul. The charge against Paul was that his gospel had been contrived. Today they call it false Christianity. They claimed that he wooed the favor of the Galatians by a kind of easy-believism, which puts aside all need to live under the Old Testament Law. Sound familiar?
Christians are encouraged to observe and imitate Paul’s ministry. Christian's are too self-conscious (guilt) of their failures before fundamentalists, seeking to win their approval by submitting to and putting themselves under the Law. If today's Christians imitated Paul, they would make the gospel the standard for their own doctrine and practice, and they would strongly resist the fundamentalists/Judaizers who are attempting to subvert the gospel.
Too many lack grace... and thereby do not know God= dirty rags
sorry about the rant... and it was not directed at you Robin.
Generally speaking judgers and haters come from 2 camps (not always) and they are;
defenders of the faith and fundamentalists. Be cautious... I'm about to ramble.
If my/your theology is derived from only Bible knowledge with no equal emphasis on the Christian spirit then I ask; what separates us from secularists? or other false religions? our Christian Bible becomes only a moral guide in an immoral world... it becomes rules and sayings. The very essence of Christianity, that which sets us apart (holy), is manifested in the likes of Mother Teresa, C.S.Lewis, Billy Graham, St. Francis Asissi and so many other saints (believers). So what is this Christian essence that sets us "apart"? I can tell you what it ain't... it isn't just Bible knowledge.
No one is righteous, not one, for all fall short, however our testimony (here on CD) often reflects our unforgiving self righteousness. Forgiveness is the conduit Jesus built for us, and our testimony should be a pane of glass by which only God's righteousness is reveled. Here we only have words, and our fruit is reveled by how we witness to others, by what we write. We (most) have a Bible, so is it necessary to beat each other into submission with God's word?
Is it a message that condemns? judges? or convicts? We know it can be all... but isn't the Gospel "good news".
I ask with utter sincerity... does satan know scripture? (of course he does). So is it reasonable to assume he will ''use" Bible knowledge against us? if possible to fool even the elect? If satan had a tactic to love people to Christ, would that be in his nature? or would his nature be to deceive? Yes... he will come as light, (probably more like a flash light) but he will come and say "did God really say that"? followed by "listen to me". Light... , true light, exposes all, not just a limited view, or man's view.
"They will know me by my voice"... not by the words but by His voice... the very nature of His voice. What is it in God's voice that the faithful will know? and others will want? what is it? The milk drinkers might say... love! it will be love!, fundamentalist's say be afraid if you hear Him, but I believe to know God is to know grace... and how will it sound?
Maturing beyond our own understanding requires spiritual development/discernment/awaking that comes from our faith, as a result of taking the step into the abyss... a place where eyes nor intellect can help us... a place where grace is crimson and continually flowing. Grace works beyond our ability to understand, or to practice , it is a place where other religions do not know. To be blind of grace is to not know our God. Grace does not need a single thread of man's understanding to work, it is self sufficient lacking nothing, it can not come from anything other than God, satan can not work thru grace, grace will always be denied by satan, to deny the power of grace is to blaspheme the power of the atoning work of Christ.... and therefore the Holy spirit.
In Gals. chapter 1&2 the focus of these chapters is on the life of the Apostle Paul. The Judaizers had repudiated both the message of salvation by grace and the messenger, the Apostle Paul. The charge against Paul was that his gospel had been contrived. Today they call it false Christianity. They claimed that he wooed the favor of the Galatians by a kind of easy-believism, which puts aside all need to live under the Old Testament Law. Sound familiar?
Christians are encouraged to observe and imitate Paul’s ministry. Christian's are too self-conscious (guilt) of their failures before fundamentalists, seeking to win their approval by submitting to and putting themselves under the Law. If today's Christians imitated Paul, they would make the gospel the standard for their own doctrine and practice, and they would strongly resist the fundamentalists/Judaizers who are attempting to subvert the gospel.
Too many lack grace... and thereby do not know God= dirty rags
sorry about the rant... and it was not directed at you Robin.
Ranting is fine, I do it alot myself. I like your focus on the Spirit because without the Spirit we can not hope to understand scripture and without grace, Gods grace, we have not the Spirit of truth.
Actually the hostility just goes to show what kind of fruit the people are really bearing. Remember a good vine bears good fruit but a bad vine bears bad fruit. If someone is hostile then they are of the wrong fruit.
It is not my truth it is the Lords truth, if you chose to deny it then that is at your own peril and not mine. I did my job and shred with you.
Far too many enlightened masters were full of crap and I say that in the nicest way possible. The majority of them were to lazy to work and found if they could BS others they would do the work for them.
Well, then by your own volition, I guess the vine of fundamentalism to which you adhere does not bear very good fruit. People mask it as being righteous for the Cross or whatever catch phrase of the day they use, but in the end the way you describe "hostility" is precisely what emanates from fundamentalists of all religious traditions.
And it is your truth, no matter how much you believe you speak for God. No one does and those who believe they do lack the humbleness to truly understand God's message to us. I have experienced a depth of Christianity that goes far beyond what you speak. Is mine any more or less true? I don't think so. Just different. So perhaps it is the Lord's truth on some level that you speak, but certainly not all of God's truth or enough to make the assertive claims you do on behalf of God.
A book can only hint at truth. As you say, one must embody the spirit. When one does that, the words of any book fade from relevance. It is important to be humble. The more you know, the more you realize that you don't know.
I have no idea what enlightened masters were lazy and full of B.S. Those are not enlightened masters. They are charlatans.
Well, then by your own volition, I guess the vine of fundamentalism to which you adhere does not bear very good fruit. People mask it as being righteous for the Cross or whatever catch phrase of the day they use, but in the end the way you describe "hostility" is precisely what emanates from fundamentalists of all religious traditions.
You sound rather judgemental. What hostility from the Fundamentalists.
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And it is your truth, no matter how much you believe you speak for God. No one does and those who believe they do lack the humbleness to truly understand God's message to us. I have experienced a depth of Christianity that goes far beyond what you speak. Is mine any more or less true? I don't think so. Just different. So perhaps it is the Lord's truth on some level that you speak, but certainly not all of God's truth or enough to make the assertive claims you do on behalf of God.
I do npot need to speak for God, He has already do this Himself. So do you deny the scriptures and the Spirit or do you adhere to them?
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A book can only hint at truth. As you say, one must embody the spirit. When one does that, the words of any book fade from relevance. It is important to be humble. The more you know, the more you realize that you don't know.
I have already realized this but the words are still relevant in that they come from God and He does not change.
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I have no idea what enlightened masters were lazy and full of B.S. Those are not enlightened masters. They are charlatans.
Why dont you name a few and we will see if they were lazy and full of BS.
if one shows hatred then they show bad fruit and are not of the Spirit.
I totally agree, although I may not use the word fruit I agree with what you are saying here. And I also do not hate you in the slightest for sharing your truth, for it is yours to share.
You sound rather judgemental. What hostility from the Fundamentalists.
Well, I am rather judgmental of fundamentalism of any kind - be it scientists who worship Darwin as their savior or religious people who worship their various saviors. If you think I'm hard on fundamentalist Christians, you should see me with Atheists! I drive them bonkers.
The hostility from fundamentalists is evident on this forum - one told a person he was spiritually dead, another rebuked me as if he spoke for Christ. I have been called ignorant, deceived, and ordered to bow to one person's god or else. They mean well and believe they are acting on behalf of what God would like them to do, but it's just not that simple.
I think the root of our problems in this world stem from people believing everybody must agree with them. So long as people believe they have the one and only true way, we will have war, bigotry, and oppression.
I have listened to fundamentalist Christian radio and heard preachers talk about profound mystical experiences that they attribute to their faith in Christ and that are very similar to my own experiences. I have known Native Americans and Buddhists and Muslims who have had similar experiences and still others who fit no category who have defied the known laws of physics.
If we could all talk and get beyond labels, we would find our experiences to be far more similar than different and we would find the Christ consciousness permeating both believers and non-believers without spending our lives making everyone agree with us. But so long as any conversation comes back to, "Do you believe this book is God's / Allah's word?" we will never get anywhere.
All I am saying... is give peace a chance
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I do npot need to speak for God, He has already do this Himself. So do you deny the scriptures and the Spirit or do you adhere to them?
Any texts written by men (even inspired men), argued over for generations as various sects jockeyed for power, and voted on by powerful men with ulterior motives is not a book to which I will offer my blind faith. There is profound wisdom in the Bible, but it was written for another people in another time using parables and concepts foreign to modern sensibilities.
I read a book called "Conversations with God" when I was young that deeply resonated with me as very true. It is supposedly written by the inspiration of God (with some aspect of God actually speaking throughout). In it, "God" says it will someday become the next Bible. But, I don't care about that. I just look at what is being said and test it as I do all ideas. The concepts have all proven true and have opened up a profound relationship with the God force, even though I would never simply blindly follow any book inspired through a human. I avoid the rather ego-driven author and just focus on the message if I need a reminder.
In the end, though, the Bible was written to point people to the universal wisdom that exists within all life as was the book that awoke me to my path to being born again. Both can be powerful tools for connecting with God.
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Why dont you name a few and we will see if they were lazy and full of BS.
Well, most are not famous. The famous ones are the ones you have to watch out for. They usually have an agenda. Krshna would be a good example, though, of one I would consider to be legit from what I know.
The hostility from fundamentalists is evident on this forum - one told a person he was spiritually dead, another rebuked me as if he spoke for Christ. I have been called ignorant, deceived, and ordered to bow to one person's god or else. They mean well and believe they are acting on behalf of what God would like them to do, but it's just not that simple.
Hi Bluefly, you touch on a few things I would like to address, hope you do not mind. Spiritually dead as well as ignorant and deceived is precisely discriptions given by th Bible for non believers and agnostics. It is actually simpler than many would have you believe.
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Any texts written by men (even inspired men), argued over for generations as various sects jockeyed for power, and voted on by powerful men with ulterior motives is not a book to which I will offer my blind faith. There is profound wisdom in the Bible, but it was written for another people in another time using parables and concepts foreign to modern sensibilities.
This I must address, yes it has been argued over since it was first written, but it has fundamentally remained the same since its originals. We can know this by the many quoted excerps the early church leaders used in the first and second century letters they wrote. Do you know that there are so many quoted verses from the NT in the first and second century letters to be able to completely reconstruct the entire NT just from those letters give or take maybe 10%. The reason they are foreign to modern sensibilities is, and you are probably expecting this, because so many refuse to accept them no matter the amount of evidence for their reliability.
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Well, most are not famous. The famous ones are the ones you have to watch out for. They usually have an agenda. Krshna would be a good example, though, of one I would consider to be legit from what I know.
What little I know of Krshna, he would fall into this category of lazy and full of BS. He did nothing but teach a doctrine contrary to the Gospel for his own self gratification.
This I must address, yes it has been argued over since it was first written, but it has fundamentally remained the same since its originals. We can know this by the many quoted excerps the early church leaders used in the first and second century letters they wrote. Do you know that there are so many quoted verses from the NT in the first and second century letters to be able to completely reconstruct the entire NT just from those letters give or take maybe 10%. The reason they are foreign to modern sensibilities is, and you are probably expecting this, because so many refuse to accept them no matter the amount of evidence for their reliability.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this. Even so, it was 3 centuries from the time Jesus walked to the time the Bible was compiled. A lot has happened since 1709 in our world.
Many sects emerged in the wake of his incredible life to try and explain it. They fought each other to become "the" Word of God. Of course, the most powerful and organized won, not necessarily the most accurate.
Even if the Bible retained complete accuracy from that point on, I would not trust it nor the process undertaken to decide which books were chosen to be included and which were not. That was all the doing of man seeking power.
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What little I know of Krshna, he would fall into this category of lazy and full of BS. He did nothing but teach a doctrine contrary to the Gospel for his own self gratification.
Well, I guess anybody who disagrees with you is lazy and full of B.S. then. No need to continue.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this. Even so, it was 3 centuries from the time Jesus walked to the time the Bible was compiled. A lot has happened since 1709 in our world.
Actually it is believed by many that the formation was done with the writing of Revelation. There is some evidence for this but because originals have decayed and disapeared there is an assumption that is was not together for 3 centuries.
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Many sects emerged in the wake of his incredible life to try and explain it. They fought each other to become "the" Word of God. Of course, the most powerful and organized won, not necessarily the most accurate.
So you completely disregard the working of the Spirit in keeping the Bible pure.
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Even if the Bible retained complete accuracy from that point on, I would not trust it nor the process undertaken to decide which books were chosen to be included and which were not. That was all the doing of man seeking power.
Holy Spirit, do we forget so soon?
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Well, I guess anybody who disagrees with you is lazy and full of B.S. then. No need to continue.
No, anyone who disagrees with the Lord, not me. You are still trying to make man out to be more powerful than God.
Actually it is believed by many that the formation was done with the writing of Revelation. There is some evidence for this but because originals have decayed and disapeared there is an assumption that is was not together for 3 centuries.
There ya go!
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So you completely disregard the working of the Spirit in keeping the Bible pure.
I have no doubt original works were inspired or were relaying accurate details of this man from Nazareth's life.
But the primary rule of existence is that humans have free will. God can inspire but not dictate, lest what would the point be for us to be here? It is up to individuals to interpret that inspiration.
If they are clouded by greed or fear, they will write and vote from that perspective.
But, God has not stopped speaking to us and the same inspiration is accessible today if you listen for it. It is in that inspiration that I find God's word and am able to assess it in relation to the inspiration written of in the Bible.
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Holy Spirit, do we forget so soon?
Ditto as above. Men have free will. Any book written - even those inspired by God today - are clouded by the individuals actually writing them.
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No, anyone who disagrees with the Lord, not me. You are still trying to make man out to be more powerful than God.
Nope. You are. I'm not the one claiming to speak for God based on an old book.
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