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I am not here to argue, but again don't you think Jesus would address homosexuality if he indeed did find it wicked and sinful?
At the risk of this becoming a circular discussion, let's just say that if you want to believe that homosexuality is ok just because Jesus didn't say a word about it, that's your perogative. The Bible has spoken clearly about this subject quite a few times. If that doesn't explain God's position on this, then it simply becomes a moot point, doesn't it?
Do you think it is wrong for a woman to be forced to marry her brother in law after her husband has died and be obligated (whether she wants to or not) to have sex with him in order to produce a son?
Do you think it is wrong for a woman not to be able to leave or divorce her husband even if he is physically/sexually abusing her or their children?
Do you think it is wrong for a virgin girl to be forced to marry a man that has raped her?
Do you think it is wrong for a man to have several wives and mistresses?
Do you think it is wrong for a father to offer up his virgin daughters to an angry mob to be gang-raped?
Do you think it is wrong for men to slaughter the men women and boys of the people from a neighbouring area and to keep all the young virgin girls for themselves? Then use the girls for awhile but get rid of them if the girls do do please them anymore?
Do you think it is wrong for a man to own slaves and to have sex with them as well as with his wife?
Do you believe people should be stoned for adultery?
Do you believe that women should be submissive to men?
..........
I could go on with all the prohibitions in Leviticus warning God's people not to do any of those idolatrous things that the Canaanites practice, and all the prohibitions in the Holiness Code that no-one bothers with, but I'm sure everyone already knows all of those .. or do you?
........
If you think all of those situations (or even some of them) are wrong in today's world or no longer apply, then you don't agree with the Scripture where these situations were either Law, condoned by God, or God just turned a blind eye to them.
On the other hand, many of you seem to be saying that you MUST agree with a couple of ambiguous verses that you think are about homosexuality in the NT.
And that you MUST agree with two prohibitions in Leviticus yet ignore most of the rest of them because they don't apply anymore.
What's even more interesting is, that many Christians (and a few people in this thread) apparently don't even know which verses they believe are about homosexuality and what they even say. Or have any awareness about any problems with translations/interpretations with those verses or the context in which they were written. Or in the case of the verse in Timothy, whether the book was even written by Paul or by a later unknown scribe using his name (as many scholars question).
Ok, then why were the very first two people who were created a man and a woman? Why didn't he just create two men and give them fishing poles and rifles? Or why didn't He just create two women and give them shopping malls and hair salons? It isn't rocket science to understand His intent in creating male and female in the first place rather than same-sex couples.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlemur
Ok, then why were the very first two people who were created a man and a woman? Why didn't he just create two men and give them fishing poles and rifles? Or why didn't He just create two women and give them shopping malls and hair salons? It isn't rocket science to understand His intent in creating male and female in the first place rather than same-sex couples.
does this mean ... if I go fishing and hunting with my buddies I'm gay?
just kidding.... were on the same side... but I couldn't resist.
correct. I'm pointing out inconsistencies as they are ever so present.
and gosh darnit.. i just find it difficult for me to condemn people when the inconsistencies are so easy to drum up.
Am I a devils advocate? Not literally.. but yeah.. what I find so astonishing.. and this has astonished me from day one on this board is that people .. sorry Christians are so ready to condemn based on inconsistencies.. even their own "logical conclusions". Its awesomely fascinating to me.
So yeah.. I do know exactly what I'm doing ILNC. So why play into it.. why not just answer the question. I understand the correct answer is not pleasant. Its not supposed to be. It goes against your grain and I understand that.. but the logic is there. You know.. and I know it. The argument has holes in it.. big gaping holes that you can't fill in with out your "logical conclusions".
It would be an easier argument to defend if you just said "gays shouldn't be married because its odd to me..." That would be the first bit of truth someone has said on the subject.. Anything other than that is a lie.. because while some on here preach the fundie drum ad nauseum in the end.. when it comes to gay marriage.. they draw their own conclusion based on their interpretation. They choose to condemn people.. thats their choice. I just wish they'd be more up front with it.. be real about it. Because in the end when God looks in your soul.. and their soul.. he'll know. There won't be any more lying then.... and honestly.. I'm not so sure "it was a logical conclusion" will be compelling enough evidence to support the decision..
but hey.. thats just me.
see I don't make the bible look bad. I make interpretations look bad..
fundie bigthirsty out..
Big T, you're one who seems have trouble with the correct answer, it's not pleasant to you. The reason I don't think gays should be married is not because it's odd to me, it's because it's a sin. I believe this what the Bible teaches, even though it does not say this word for word, the truth is there.
If you believe that Jesus is God then you'll have to admit that he has spoken in the Bible about homosexuality. He spoke about it in the OT and he spoke about it through the letters from Paul. Again, if you believe Jesus is God, then yes, He has spoken about homosexuality in the Bible.
As for gay marriage, it's the same point. If He is against homosexuality then it's pretty obvious that gay marriage is out too.
As a former homosexual, trust me...I have looked and looked and researched and couldn't find anything to support God or Jesus approving homosexual. I wanted to, believe me, I did.
If you believe that Jesus is God then you'll have to admit that he has spoken in the Bible about homosexuality. He spoke about it in the OT and he spoke about it through the letters from Paul. Again, if you believe Jesus is God, then yes, He has spoken about homosexuality in the Bible.
As for gay marriage, it's the same point. If He is against homosexuality then it's pretty obvious that gay marriage is out too.
As a former homosexual, trust me...I have looked and looked and researched and couldn't find anything to support God or Jesus approving homosexual. I wanted to, believe me, I did.
Very commendable and I would rep you if I could but I have to spread some around to the less deserving first.
If you believe that Jesus is God then you'll have to admit that he has spoken in the Bible about homosexuality. He spoke about it in the OT and he spoke about it through the letters from Paul. Again, if you believe Jesus is God, then yes, He has spoken about homosexuality in the Bible.
There is mention of homosexual "acts" in Leviticus along with all the other prohibitions no longer followed today. And given the context of Leviticus, those prohibitions could easily be referring to the idolatrous practices of the Canaanites.
I don't believe Paul was talking about homosexuals in 1 Romans or homosexuality in general in 1 Cor 6 or 1Timothy 1. And 1 Timothy 1 is suspect as to whether Paul even wrote it.
I found evidence for this fairly easily by reading what a range of bliblical scholars, historians and textural critics had to say about those verses and the context in which they may have been written.
So that's it...gay people are condemned because of a 2 prohibitions in Leviticus amonst a whole bunch of prohibitions no one follows anymore, and a couple of ambigious lines in copies of letters attributed to Paul. Don't bother with the S and G reference because that's really reading something into a story that just isn't there.
So not much to go on to support all the massive attention and condemnation of homosexuality or homosexuals in general.
To me, people who use the Bible to condemn homosexuals, are just reading into the Bible what they choose to believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier
As for gay marriage, it's the same point. If He is against homosexuality then it's pretty obvious that gay marriage is out too.
I don't believe the Bible supports God being against homosexuality, just certain homosexual acts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoosier
As a former homosexual, trust me...I have looked and looked and researched and couldn't find anything to support God or Jesus approving homosexual. I wanted to, believe me, I did.
You have said that during the time when you felt same-sex attractions, you were also attracted to females. By definition that is bi-sexuality, not homosexuality.
Christians have changed their views about those situations I posted earlier as times have changed - I believe the same will eventually happen with homosexuality.
Homosexuality is not a sin. If you all would take the time to learn how complex the soul is, you would know that. The bible does not teach you how the soul is made, how it incarnates in the body or anything else. The soul, your half, is made with two parts. That soul splits in half BEFORE it incarnates into the material body. The soul, your half, does not care if it goes into male or female. It only looks for a body that can support it. And that is usually BEFORE the sexual organs are formed. A male half CAN incarnate into a female body and vise verse. The gay/lesbian tendencies are there when you are born. There is nothing you can do about it and if God wanted the males and females to only go into those genders, He would have not made it possible for the soul to go into the opposite sex.
Homosexuality, therefore, is a behavior, which develops in certain part of the population by a process of sexual fixation that one may observe in all social classes, in all societies, even in the animal kingdom. It is an inclination that doesn't constitute the norm, because only a minority is affected, but it is not unnatural and can be practiced in harmony with God's laws, in the same way as heterosexuality.
Sexuality is merely a material function, and it doesn't have anything to do with spirituality. In the spirit world, the spirit bodies don't even have sexual organs. All kinds of love, of which we speak, for example natural love in the spirit world, or soul mate love, have nothing to do with sexuality.
Sexuality is a purely material phenomenon, which disappears a short time after entering the new world of spirits. The love between soul mates is a highly purified love, a spiritual love, only overpowered in its quality by the Father's Love. It is the highest form of natural love.
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... but I couldn't resist.
