Love or truth? (testament, Commandment, Apostle Paul, fundamentalist)

[roneb]

I'm new to this thread, so I'll go back to trying to answer the original question. Truth is useless without love. Real truth can only follow love, compassion, and most importantly, His Grace. To place truth first is to be presumptive of our true place and leads to judgement and a lack of love/compassion. Until we stand before Him, we can never be certain of absolute truth beyond our trusting of His Grace and the salvation it offers us. After that we must rely on the sense of love and compassion it provides us as guide. This is where I have great difficulty in my experiences with those who take a fundamentalist view of scripture.

[Dave_n_Tenn]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Notice how it does not mention . . . "for understanding the nature of God" . . . because Jesus came to provide the TRUE NATURE of God. It is "USEFUL" when correctly interpreted through the "mind of Jesus" . . . not our fallible human minds in ignorance and superstition. ANYTHING that appeals to our negative human emotions is of Satan . . . not God. Like Jesus UNAMBIGUOUSLY proved . . . God has no negative human emotions. Rebellion is a negative human emotion = Satan. ANYTHING that appeals to our negative human emotions . . whether external or internal . . . is of Satan, period.

The OT is the "old wineskin" used to contain the "old wine" (our ancestors' belief in God) . . . the NT is the "new wineskin" used to contain the "new wine" (our belief in God). You don't put new wine in old wineskins.

would you call conviction negative? or mourning?

[Goodpasture]

Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn

Interesting... is that your personal doctrine based on scripture? if it is please share. From my perspective that is in conflict with...

No, it is based on my experience as a farmer......

Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn

Mat 5:18
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place.

So you support all of the laws described in Leviticus? If not, how do you determine which should be followed and which should be ignored?

Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn

Are you suggesting the OT needs to be eliminated? I hope not. The OT is foundational, we must have foundation to support the covering of Christ. Without the OT how would we know Jesus is the one?

If you had ever met Jesus you would know exactly who He is. For 300+ years Christians had no "Old Testament" except for the writings of Josephus and the Talmud and the oral history of the Jewish people......yet they STILL knew who Jesus was.......even gentiles WITHOUT the Jewish history and tradition knew who He was. But the OT is VERY handy for keeping people going to a temple of some sort and paying for a professional class of prophets/preachers.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by Dave_n_Tenn

would you call conviction negative? or mourning?

Conviction is a state of mind that needs definition . . . it is neither positive nor negative until we know the specifics. Mourning is not negative . . . it is a consequence of love.

[Dave_n_Tenn]

Goodpasture;8264631]No, it is based on my experience as a farmer......

What seems right to a man... the parable of the sower speaks of good soil. I ask with all due respect... what is the soil to you? and the seed? who is the sower?

So you support all of the laws described in Leviticus? If not, how do you determine which should be followed and which should be ignored?

I'm sure you are aware I quoted Jesus. Those were not my words. I am not obligated to follow the law as precepts, but I am still expected to follow the principles of the law, according to Jesus. If God's law is foundational (soil) does the sower remove soil? or does the sower renurish the soil (NT)?
Good soil is more than the law, but it is a very important componenet to "good soil". As a farmer you know soil is compromised of many nutriants.

If you had ever met Jesus you would know exactly who He is. For 300+ years Christians had no "Old Testament" except for the writings of Josephus and the Talmud and the oral history of the Jewish people......yet they STILL knew who Jesus was.......even gentiles WITHOUT the Jewish history and tradition knew who He was. But the OT is VERY handy for keeping people going to a temple of some sort and paying for a professional class of prophets/preachers.

I hope your right about knowing Him... "they will know me by my voice", however the OT remains as important today as it was when it was written. It's still the word of God.

Getting rid of the OT would be like denying my parents have any role in my life... and even if I did, would that change anything?

[Dave_n_Tenn]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Conviction is a state of mind that needs definition . . . it is neither positive nor negative until we know the specifics. Mourning is not negative . . . it is a consequence of love.

I agree with both statements...

guilt and conviction may feel the same but they move us in different directions. One is of satan the other of the spirit. Faith and presumtion often look the same, one moves us to the place where only our intellect can provide an answer, and faith moves us towards a place where the holy spirit opens our eyes.

Presumption and guilt is like cement, were stuck... while faith and conviction moves us towards Him.

[Goodpasture]

You quoted Matthew

"not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place"

Everything took place on Calvary. At that point the "law" became inconsequential to salvation. Salvation became totally faith based. The law the apostles debated only applied until Jesus was resurrected. Prior to the resurrection Jews could not go into Gentiles houses......after the resurrection Peter went into the House of Cornelius. Prior to the resurrection there were strict laws about what could and could not be eaten. After the resurrection the menu was expanded, eating restrictions were removed. Prior to the resurrection you could not touch a pig skin. After the resurrection we got to play football. Prior to the resurrection we stoned our defiled daughters, after we cherished and nurtured them and welcomed the kid. Prior to the resurrection we burned lambs at the alter, after the resurrection we celebrated the sacrifice of the Lamb. Prior to the resurrection we went outside the home to worship with a Levitical Class to lead us. After the resurrection we go into a closet or private place and talk to God directly (well, SOME so-called-Christians still go to temples with an alter in the front and a Levitical class leading them).

"they will know me by my voice"

......having heard His voice, I not only know Him, He knows me.

the OT remains as important today as it was when it was written

Nonsense. the OT is a list of rules to live a God Pleasing Life by, by people who were born into a certain nation, and a history of the Jewish people.....Nothing more, nothing less.

It's still the word of God.

On that we will have to disagree

Getting rid of the OT would be like denying my parents have any role in my life.

Saying the OT was instrumental in your Salvation is saying Jesus's death and resurrection wasn't enough.....that in addition to His sacrifice, you must also perform adequately by not sinning....except for playing football and eating shellfish.

and even if I did, would that change anything?

It might change your life if you became aware of the meaning of the sacrifice Jesus made and decided to rely on Him instead of the rulebook from the middle east.

[Fundamentalist]

The Apostle Paul said, he would not know sin if not for the Law. So Good Pasture if we got rid of the Law. How will you know sin? Paul wouldn't know so how would you?

[Dave_n_Tenn]

Originally Posted by Goodpasture

You quoted Matthew

Everything took place on Calvary. At that point the "law" became inconsequential to salvation. Salvation became totally faith based. The law the apostles debated only applied until Jesus was resurrected. Prior to the resurrection Jews could not go into Gentiles houses......after the resurrection Peter went into the House of Cornelius. Prior to the resurrection there were strict laws about what could and could not be eaten. After the resurrection the menu was expanded, eating restrictions were removed. Prior to the resurrection you could not touch a pig skin. After the resurrection we got to play football. Prior to the resurrection we stoned our defiled daughters, after we cherished and nurtured them and welcomed the kid. Prior to the resurrection we burned lambs at the alter, after the resurrection we celebrated the sacrifice of the Lamb. Prior to the resurrection we went outside the home to worship with a Levitical Class to lead us. After the resurrection we go into a closet or private place and talk to God directly (well, SOME so-called-Christians still go to temples with an alter in the front and a Levitical class leading them).

......having heard His voice, I not only know Him, He knows me.


Nonsense. the OT is a list of rules to live a God Pleasing Life by, by people who were born into a certain nation, and a history of the Jewish people.....Nothing more, nothing less.


On that we will have to disagree


Saying the OT was instrumental in your Salvation is saying Jesus's death and resurrection wasn't enough.....that in addition to His sacrifice, you must also perform adequately by not sinning....except for playing football and eating shellfish.


It might change your life if you became aware of the meaning of the sacrifice Jesus made and decided to rely on Him instead of the rulebook from the middle east.

all I can say is ... thanks.

would anyone care to comment? I'm out

[StirringWaters]

All the Law hangs on the Greatest Commandment and the Second that is like it. It's just the way it is...because Jesus said so.