Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You show me a baby that can talk from the womb and I'll reconsider my vote.
Alpha,
Is reconsidering the same as changing? Would you change your vote if God could show you? I did nothing than repeat what God said himself. But as I challenged those of decision theology, I say it again, base it on book, chapter, verse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
Do we serve a just God?
Yes, and that the point. I'm not denying the truth of Gods Word. What you're aghast at, is that God is just, that all have sinned, no one is unaccountable, even those cute little infants.
Again, if you're so sure, don't use IMO's or "I believe" show me the book, chapter verse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
If we do, infants don't go to Hell, we can be certain of that.
That is nowhere in scripture. Some have pointed out that we are not guilty of our fathers sin....EXACTLY!
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
Nor will the father share the guilt! Another words each are accountable.
Ezekiel 18:4
For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
2 Chronicles 25:4
Yet he did not put their sons to death, but acted in accordance with what is written in the Law, in the Book of Moses, where the LORD commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins."
Alpha, if life begins at conception (which I believe it does) then tell me when the soul begins if not at conception and I should see no deaths prior to that, right?
Twin.spin, you answered "other", and listed verses that you believe say babies sin, but you didn't say where you believe they go when they die. Where is "other"?
Hebrews 9:27
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
They go before the throne of God and are judged...some to eternal life, others to damnation. I however, do not nor will not go beyond what Gods Word says. Nowhere does it say that infants don't die or recieve their soul at some point after conception, or say that they are not held accountable for their sinful nature..."Flesh gives birth to flesh"
I yet am waiting for book, chapter, verse that says otherwise.
Just as an interesting side note about gods views on babies.
In two seperate places, God seems to imply hat babies less then one month old, have no value.
Lev 27:6
Num 3:15-16
We do have verses that speak + or - about sin and our conception into that. It is simply false to claim that infants aren't sinful. All means all, and all includes infants.
Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 5:12
[ Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ ] Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned
It is also false to claim the unborn can't have a saving faith or reject God
Psalm 22:10 From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God. Psalm 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.
I would lay such things before God. I still challange anyone who responds that children are sinless to provide scripture and not IMO or I believe's.
Remember, who does the choosing...God or human? Who gives the gift of faith...God or human?
Greetings, twin.spin--Great supporting verses. Thanks for sharing them!
Someone once said "We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners." The issue of disagreement here is what condemns us--sinning or being a sinner? We are sinners, as you pointed out with the Word, from conception. That is what we are constitutionally. That is what God judges. Unless one, even a baby, is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. All infants enter this world spiritually stillborn because they are in Adam. They must be born again, be made a new creation, and thus be placed in Christ in order to be saved. Can God do that to all infants if He so chooses? Of course. Has He promised to do that? No! Where He is silent, we should be silent.
Some here say that God would not send infants to hell because He is just and loving but when they say such things, they are imposing upon God their own interpretation of "just" and "loving." They are demanding that He act in a certain way. But, as you know, His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. We know that God is just and that God is love, but we do not always and cannot always know how God manifests those attributes. We arrogantly sit in judgment of God when we presumptuously say such things as "My God wouldn't" . . . or "I can't believe God would . . . ."
Paul dealt with these issues in Romans 9. He spoke of children "not yet born, nor having done any good or evil" as being either elect or not elect of God. The purpose of God is that all who come to Him do so because He has called them. Thus from the womb--"Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
Those on this thread who accuse God of unrighteousness should He send "innocent" children to hell, would do well to consider Paul's words--
"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. . . . He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.' You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?' But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" (Romans 9:10ff--emphasis mine).
Some are prepared beforehand "for destruction" and others are prepared beforehand "for glory." That is what the Scriptures say whether we like it or not.
We did not make ourselves sinners--we were born such. And we do not make ourselves believers--we are born again from above apart from works by God's grace alone. Those who would presume to know all about God's will and to fully understand His ways should take heed lest they find themselves talking back to God and accusing Him of unrighteousness!
Hebrews 9:27
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
They go before the throne of God and are judged...some to eternal life, others to damnation. I however, do not nor will not go beyond what Gods Word says. Nowhere does it say that infants don't die or recieve their soul at some point after conception, or say that they are not held accountable for their sinful nature..."Flesh gives birth to flesh"
I yet am waiting for book, chapter, verse that says otherwise.
Do you think they will be judged because God knows what they would have done with their life? He knows whether they would have chosen to obey Him or not, and they are judged accordingly?
Again, if you're so sure, don't use IMO's or "I believe" show me the book, chapter verse.
I've already given you book and chapter showing where we have a perfect biblical example of David's son being where David was going(Heaven).
But whatever, I gave my OPINION which is based on SCRIPTURE and anyone reading my posts can do whatever they like with them.
I pray for the woman who loses her 2 month old child and turns to views such as yours for ministry and prayer in light of the tragedy. But again, all I can control and influence is what God sets before me...so that's where my focus has to be.
the soul of a baby goes into hell, the place of the dead. babies have no sin, therefore they rest in the haven known as paradise, in the world of the dead. their souls will remain their until the day of judgment, when they will rise from their graves to meet god the father and christ the son. the pronouncement of the great judgment will be made by the almighty and then they will ascend into the eternal heaven to be with god, christ, and all other saints. at that time, the bible tells us, we will be known as we were known on earth. the bible says that we will know those from whom we were separated on earth. we know from scripture that our physical bodies will not enter heaven; however, we know that some form of recognition is promised by god. no crying, no sorrow, no pain, and no sighing...a homecoming of sorts. although i don't pretend to know many of these mysteries, i suppose that we will appear in the same form that christ did on the resurrection and before his ascension. remember, mary magdalene saw the savior, recognized him, but knew he was in a different physical form than he was on the cross. i believe lazarus and peter or james also saw him after his resurrection but they did not recognize him. i cannot remember the exact details, but i can look it up in the gospel of luke or one of the other gospels. imo, most christians seem to think that our souls go directly to god in heaven, but the scriptures do not teach this. gehenna, tataroos, and hell; paradise. these are all key words and concepts to understand concerning this subject. i am an episcopalian
the soul of a baby goes into hell, the place of the dead. babies have no sin, therefore they rest in the haven known as paradise, in the world of the dead. their souls will remain their until the day of judgment, when they will rise from their graves to meet god the father and christ the son. the pronouncement of the great judgment will be made by the almighty and then they will ascend into the eternal heaven to be with god, christ, and all other saints. at that time, the bible tells us, we will be known as we were known on earth. the bible says that we will know those from whom we were separated on earth. we know from scripture that our physical bodies will not enter heaven; however, we know that some form of recognition is promised by god. no crying, no sorrow, no pain, and no sighing...a homecoming of sorts. although i don't pretend to know many of these mysteries, i suppose that we will appear in the same form that christ did on the resurrection and before his ascension. remember, mary magdalene saw the savior, recognized him, but knew he was in a different physical form than he was on the cross. i believe lazarus and peter or james also saw him after his resurrection but they did not recognize him. i cannot remember the exact details, but i can look it up in the gospel of luke or one of the other gospels. imo, most christians seem to think that our souls go directly to god in heaven, but the scriptures do not teach this. gehenna, tataroos, and hell; paradise. these are all key words and concepts to understand concerning this subject. i am an episcopalian
Good post, and something to consider.
Perhaps Heaven waits for us all AFTER the resurrection....and we're asleep until then.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
the souls of the righteous...
