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But I was putting you in the place of God (temporarily) - you would do whatsoever your will dictated.
Your "fact" is totally contrary to the New Testament - but again, who's counting?
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes. Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts. (Proverbs 21:1-2)
Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction, And say, "Return, O children of men." For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it is past, And like a watch in the night. (Psalm 90:1-4)
The verses you quote completely support Reverend's claims.
When you elevate your spirituality to a level at which you function in alignment with God, you give yourself over to being guided by that larger force and allow yourself to be turned whichever way you want.
The second verse suggests that we fell away from the perfect union to experience maturation in the relative world back to the absolute. So, we live a life in which we perceive destruction and work toward returning to God.
No free will?!? One look at our planet burdened by wars, hatred, bigotry, environmental catastrophe, and all the other manifestations of greed and ignorance would lead one to believe that, if you are correct, then God is pretty pathetic if s/he is controlling all of this.
The way you think the world should be run means...what?
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Originally Posted by Bluefly
I think you need to put the book down and assess it more objectively. Seems pretty evident we have the free will to experience whatever division from God we need to without judgment and slowly work our way to union with God (which is what Christ seems to have represented).
He came to bring not peace, but a sword. It's that necessary division that draws the line between what we are and what He is. The end result is our nature is extinguished, and only He remains.
The verses you quote completely support Reverend's claims.
When you elevate your spirituality to a level at which you function in alignment with God, you give yourself over to being guided by that larger force and allow yourself to be turned whichever way you want.
The second verse suggests that we fell away from the perfect union to experience maturation in the relative world back to the absolute. So, we live a life in which we perceive destruction and work toward returning to God.
I get that, but my point is we think we're making these choices from their origin to their culmination - but a simple breeze can change our minds - what makes you think it's all us?
This is not directed at your character, just your (and my) nature:
You think you're choosing not to sin, but in your arrogance you're boastful about your choice - both sins. The point is, you could walk through life totally doing "good", and be found wanting. Your righteousness (from your very DNA) is like a used menstrual cloth. Our definition of "good" is beside the point.
An individual who elevates his consciousness to a certain point has no desire to sin (by sin I mean any action that does not resonate with the union of all life). It's not arrogant or boastful. It's simply a fact. I'm not saying I am there yet by any means, but it is possible.
An elevated individual recognizes the intrinsic unity between all life and the power of living within that unity. At that point, the individual has no need or desire to be selfish. Like a child maturing into adulthood, she has no need for supervision and rules.
This is what the primitive cultures that wrote the Bible were trying to grasp in the only way they could at the time.
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All you're doing is acknowledging the Law over man; don't like the book or the reminder of its contents, huh?
Doesn't matter whether I like a book or not. The Bible is not critical for reaching union with God, though I guess it helps many people like a roadmap might. So I don't really care what its contents are. I certainly won't be made to live in fear of them.
...In Chapter 8, he states , that because of the arrival of Jesus, the Messiah, that fateful dilemma is resolved...
He knew the law, but couldn't keep it because the power of sin that was within him kept sabotaging his best intentions. He was stating that he realized that he didn't have what it takes...something was wrong!!....
....Romans7:24 Paul cries out, "Oh, what a miserable person I am! WHO will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death?"...
....he is stating that he has tried everything and nothing helps...he was at the end of his rope!!!..."Is there no one who can do anything for me?...Isn't that the real question?"....
.....verse 25 "THANK GOD!!!...THE ANSWER IS JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD...!".....
.....The answer , thank God, is that Jesus Christ CAN and DOES. He acted to set things right in this life of contradictions where I want to serve God with all of my heart and mind, but am pulled by the influence of sin to do something totally different.....
...Please...go on to read Chapter 8...and read what Paul continues on to say IS THE ANSWER concerning this question...
(THE SOLUTION IS LIFE ON GOD"S TERMS!!!...LIFE IN THE SPIRIT!!!...FREE FROM INDWELLING SIN!!! )
...Rom.8:1 So now there is no condemnation FOR THOSE WHO BELONG TO CHRIST JESUS. AND BECAUSE YOU BELONG TO HIM, THE POWER OF THE LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT HAS FREED YOU FROM THE POWER OF SIN THAT LEADS TO DEATH. THE LAW OF MOSES WAS UNABLE TO SAVE US BECAUSE OF THE WEAKNESS OF OUR SINFUL NATURE. SO GOD DID WHAT THE LAW COULD NOT DO. HE SENT HIS OWN SON IN A BODY LIKE THE BODIES WE SINNERS HAVE. AND IN THAT BODY GOD DECLARED AN END TO SIN'S CONTROL OVER US BY GIVING HIS SON AS A SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS. HE DID THIS SO THAT THE JUST REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW WOULD BE FULLY SATISFIED FOR US, WHO NO LONGER FOLLOW OUR SINFUL NATURE BUT INSTEAD FOLLOW THE SPIRIT....
...THOSE WHO ARE DOMINATED BY THE SINFUL NATURE THINK ABOUT SINFUL THINGS, BUT THOSE WHO ARE CONTROLLED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT THINK ABOUT THINGS THAT PLEASE THE SPIRIT. SO LETTING YOUR SINFUL NATURE CONTROL YOUR MIND LEADS TO DEATH. BUT LETTING THE SPIRIT CONTROL YOUR MIND LEADS TO LIFE AND PEACE. FOR THE SINFUL NATURE IS ALWAYS HOSTILE TO GOD. IT NEVER DID OBEY GOD'S LAWS, AND IT NEVER WILL. THAT'S WHY THOSE WHO ARE STILL UNDER THE CONTROL OF THEIR SINFUL NATURE CAN NEVER PLEASE GOD...
...BUT YOU ARE NOT CONTROLLED BY YOUR SINFUL NATURE. YOU ARE CONTROLLED BY THE SPIRIT IF YOU HAVE THE SPIRIT OF GOD LIVING IN YOU.(AND REMEMBER THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST LIVING IN THEM DO NOT BELONG TO HIM AT ALL.)....
...VERSE 12 THEREFORE, DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTERS, YOU HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO DO WHAT YOUR NATURE URGES YOU TO DO.FOR IF YOU LIVE BY ITS DICTATES, YOU WILL DIE.BUT IF THROUGH THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT YOU PUT TO DEATH THE DEEDS OF YOUR SINFUL NATURE, YOU WILL LIVE. FOR ALL WHO ARE LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD ARE CHILDREN OF GOD."
...let those who have the ears to hear....hear!...PLEASE! We DO have a free-will to choose...and the choice could mean the difference between life and death.
I love you, Verna
Last edited by Verna Perry; 05-05-2009 at 10:58 AM..
The way you think the world should be run means...what?
He came to bring not peace, but a sword. It's that necessary division that draws the line between what we are and what He is. The end result is our nature is extinguished, and only He remains.
(I get that from that book. )
Well, if you actually think Christ came to bring a "sword" and not peace, then I guess I will respectfully disagree.
If you study the individuals walking today and in the past who have reached similar levels of consciousness as Christ, they too have been able to perform extraordinary miracles because they have learned to live in alignment with all of life, which is precisely what Christ taught. That's the fundamental key to free will at the heart of the evolution back to God.
He came to create other masters, not servants, so I guess in that sense I agree with you that, upon reaching that level of mastery, our nature (i.e. ego self) is extinguished and we exist, like the one we know as Christ, at the "right hand of God", as it were.
God does not 'violate' anything!, but the term " free will" is not found in the scriptures. The fact that God allows us to either chose Him and His Way, or chose our own way is definitely scriptural.
The bad things that happen to us is not necessarilly from God, or from the Devil. It may be a poor choice on our part. I do believe God 'allows' things to happen that, in our eyes, are terrible things. We do not know how He thinks on these things. We are assured that "all things work together for good to those who love God, and are called according to His purpose". We do not know what all that entails.
Far be it from me to question or condemn God for the things that happen. ( I cannot say if I may do so if some terrible thing should happen to one of my loved ones.)
I had a good discussion with Alpha yesterday about predestination and "free will" came up. I see free will totally different than most. I don't see free will have anything to do with salvation. If we are dead in our sins and God brings us to life. How can we go against our own nature of hating God to now loving God?
He presents us with a truth we cannot deny, He breaks our hearts so He can rebuilt them better.
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what changed us?
Truth.
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My question is if we TRULY had FREE will then why can't we not sin?
Because our flesh enjoys the darkness and we must crucify our flesh daily.
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Are we not bound either in sin or righteousness?
We are bound by our choices and even being covered in the blood we are tempted.
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Can one be independent of sin or righteousness, is there an outside source I don't know about or are we locked in either and if God is the one who unlocks us then did not God violate our free will?
God is the outside source and He tells us "If you love Me, keep my commandments." He doesnt violate free will, He wants us to be willing to give up that free will to follow Him without question.
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If free will IS choice and we make the choice to to be with Him (somehow going against our own nature by acting independently without any interference of God) then how does that not take away any of God's glory?
Because we are choosing Him freely and when make that complete choice, He takes over from there, but none of us actually make that complete choice until there is no flesh to hinder us.
...In Chapter 8, he states , that because of the arrival of Jesus, the Messiah, that fateful dilemma is resolved...
He knew the law, but couldn't keep it because the power of sin that was within him kept sabotaging his best intentions. He was stating that he realized that he didn't have what it takes...something was wrong!!....
....Romans7:24 Paul cries out, "Oh, what a miserable person I am! WHO will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death?"...
....he is stating that he has tried everything and nothing helps...he was at the end of his rope!!!..."Is there no one who can do anything for me?...Isn't that the real question?"....
.....verse 25 "THANK GOD!!!...THE ANSWER IS JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD...!".....
Verna is right - the problem is that most Christians never go beyond the Romans 7 experience because they are told they cannot cease to sin and that committing sin occasionally is the normal Christian walk.
Those who commit sin have not repented of sin and those who have not repented have not received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
He presents us with a truth we cannot deny, He breaks our hearts so He can rebuilt them better.
Truth.
Because our flesh enjoys the darkness and we must crucify our flesh daily.
We are bound by our choices and even being covered in the blood we are tempted.
God is the outside source and He tells us "If you love Me, keep my commandments." He doesnt violate free will, He wants us to be willing to give up that free will to follow Him without question.
Because we are choosing Him freely and when make that complete choice, He takes over from there, but none of us actually make that complete choice until there is no flesh to hinder us.
Hi Robin,
Biblically speaking no one has free will until they receive the grace of God through the Holy Spirit. Until then, we are all under the power of the Satan through the flesh and cannot resist temptation completely - those in the flesh will all sin eventually if not regularly.
Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The carnal mind cannot be subject to the law of God. What we see on this forum are people controlled by the flesh who claim to be "born of God".
They are deceiving themselves because:
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
HK
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In Ch. 7... Paul was at the end of his rope...
