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Old 05-31-2009, 06:26 PM
 
1,156 posts, read 1,387,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly View Post
"...you will know we are Christians by our love by our love, yes you'll know that we are Christians by our..."

Perplexing, indeed.
Only to those who think love has no discernment...
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Old 05-31-2009, 08:06 PM
 
11,155 posts, read 15,661,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omahabound View Post
Apparently our government is saying differently.

Religion and the Founding of the American Republic (Library of Congress Exhibition)


You mean this Christian nation?

So says the Supreme Court.

"If we pass beyond these matters to a view of American life, as expressed by its laws, its business, its customs, and its society, we find every where a clear recognition of the same truth. Among other matters, note the following: the form of oath universally prevailing, concluding with an appeal to the Almighty; the custom of opening sessions of all deliberative bodies and most conventions with prayer; the prefatory words of all wills, "In the name of God, amen;" the laws respecting the observance of the Sabbath, with the general cessation of all secular business, and the closing of courts, legislatures, and other similar public assemblies on that day; the churches and church organizations which abound in every city, town, and hamlet; the multitude of charitable organizations existing every where under Christian auspices; the gigantic missionary associations, with general support, and aiming to establish Christian missions in every quarter of the globe. These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation."

And the Founding Fathers' vision of the US? Apparently you have no clue as to how they saw our Nation.


You missed something else by TJ...
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."

But why look at just TJ and not other founders? Probably the same reason you pick one quote only to ignore others.

John Adams
"Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure, than they have it now, they may change their Rulers and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty."

and...

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."

And the "prophesy" of Ben Franklin...

In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending Providence in our favor.… and have we not forgotten this powerful Friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need His assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: “that God governs in the affairs of man.” And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? … I believe farther that this [new government under the Constitution] is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other.

How did John Jay think we need to proceed as a Christian Nation?...
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. "

James Madison's views?...
"Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe."
In all of your quotes (except the obscure and mostly irrelevant John Jay) there is no mention of Christianity. Many religious folk confuse a mention of God as being a mention of their interpretation of God.

It is to what people of that era could only know as a greater God that the founders submitted their will, not a specific religious doctrine. Thus, why it was and remains a secular government, for it does not speak for any one religious ideology as many Middle Eastern countries do. In fact, the whole reason they sought to create the U.S. was to escape the control of one religion. As such, the founders established a nation through which people were free to pursue a relationship with God in whatever manner they saw fit, knowing full well that when we understand God in its fullest, every path, even that of the Atheist, is in conscious relationship with what we call God.

I say it high time we welcome Hindus and Muslims and Pagans and Atheists and all the others who find a relationship with what we call God or the divine Spark of the Universe or whatever else we call it into the fold. Truly is remarkable the many paths people can seek to the same truth, and that's the beauty of our nation.










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Old 06-01-2009, 03:33 AM
 
6,351 posts, read 21,481,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omahabound View Post
Yeah because we've seen all kinds of fundamentalist things incorporated into our government like...hold on...like...wait, I'm thinking...like...hrmmmm...like...well...um...like ...can you help me here?
I sure can help you; but where do I start? Let's see; you can't honestly serve in our nation's military if you are gay. Blue Laws (thankfully going the way of the dodo) Americans that are discrimated against legally and financially because the chromosones they inherited are slightly different than the norm. "Abstinence-only" sex education, Faith-based initiatives, prayer breakfasts....

But BOT: The original title of this thread; "Is more hostility aimed at Christians today?" In my experience, the answer is that the rest of us are trying to keep the fundamentalists from forcing THEIR beliefs on the rest of us and getting us closer to a Theocracy. Most thinking Americans don't need to worship in public places in this country. They know that you can worship in church and you can pay to send your kids to a religious school. But PUBLIC schools are NOT the place to worship. (but, yes, you may pray at school on your own without forcing others to pray along with you) Not everyone needs to pray before a sports contest, meeting or whatever. Why force those who don't believe as you do to go through your prayer? So yes, there IS more hostility aimed at those Christians who force their will on the rest of us. And rightfully so.
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Old 06-01-2009, 03:55 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,232 posts, read 46,531,842 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by averagejoe76 View Post
In my viewpoint there seems to be more open hatred of..
Christians today.I see it online,tv,online video games i play.
People claim that christians are forcing their views on everyone,etc
I really dont see what they are talking about.
Seems like this country is fighting a cultural battle in many ways.
I honestly see it getting worse....
Of course christians today have it much better than christians in...
Other time periods.
Some Christians do, some don't. I think that anyone who pushes their views on another is "hostile". No matter whether you're an atheist, or an avid churchgoer, where you start pushing your views on me, you're the hostile one, not me. I just don't want to hear it. Goes for a lot of things. Why can't we just let people be who they want to be? Doesn't mean you have to AGREE with them, but let them be who they want to be.
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Old 06-01-2009, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Wichita,Kansas
2,732 posts, read 6,750,110 times
Reputation: 1371
Im just glad im a christian in America...
There are many places in the world where you pay a heavy price for..
Belief in Jesus.I never force my beliefs on anyone but if i hear someone..
Mocking or insulting my faith i wont be silent either.
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Old 06-01-2009, 11:23 AM
 
11,155 posts, read 15,661,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
Crew Chief, just because you don't believe it, doesn't mean it's not truth. And YOU are in the minority as an unbeliever, not the other way around.

There is a "falling away" that is taking place right now and it comes in many forms....falling away of lukewarm Christians by way of liberalism and political correctness, falling away because of sin and greed that has affected EVERYONE in the US by way of the economy, disillusion due to lack of faith etc. etc....the list is endless. Satan has dumped out his evil bag of tricks, which includes a vast array of false doctrines, as a last ditch effort because he knows his time is short before Jesus returns.

It's all predicted in the Bible because we are living in the last days before Christ's return. The persecution of Christians will get worse, also as predicted. We (fundamental Christians) would like very much for you to see things from the perspective that we do, which is that we simply follow the Bible and it's instructions. That has been twisted by liberals and the media that we are intolerant and that we somehow "hate" certain groups of people and everything we do is "politically incorrect" and self-righteous.

I don't care what name you give it, because I live for Christ, not faithless people who think that this life is worth anything. It's not worth spit...it's a flash in the pan, a twinkling of an eye, a puff of smoke. The ONLY thing that matters is what GOD says. It's in the Bible, check it out.

You really think Jesus was a conservative as it is currently understood?

When you rail against "liberalism", you rail against helping the poor (mentioned over 2000 times in the Bible), standing for peace in the face of blind and mindless jingoism (the Prince of Peace), stewarding the earth responsibly (dictated in the Bible), standing up for those persecuted and stoned by the masses (protecting such individuals as homosexuals stoned by the ignorant masses full of hatred and judgment just as Jesus did in his day), and providing for the well being of all (the core of Jesus' message).

Time to grow up, young one. Christ has no political alignment.
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Old 06-01-2009, 12:06 PM
 
624 posts, read 1,243,384 times
Reputation: 623
They are not a race; they are not a class of people- they are sinners just like me. I will not accept sin as normal. Repent of your sin and get right with our Creator. All things under the sun is vainity unless we worship God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. You either believe this or you do not believe it. Man has never had the answer, but God's word does. Follow God not man. Pretty simple, huh
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Old 06-01-2009, 12:13 PM
 
16,087 posts, read 41,029,990 times
Reputation: 6374
Your interpretation is different than mine.
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