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That's simple. In His OD, Jesus didn't mention one thing that even resembled the rapture until 24:30-31 when He said "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days" If Jesus didn't find the "rapture" important enough to mention, then how do we give such credence to something He didn't even bother to acknowledge. "Behold I have told you ALL things beforehand"
But Jesus DID tell us about a gathering of the Saints AFTER the tribulation. It doesn't get any clearer than that. That is when Paul's 1 Thess. & Corinthians "rapture" verses occur: immediately after the tribulation of those days, when Jesus raises the dead and then the living Christians join them from the four corners of the earth.
thrillobyte: Jesus also gave the time frame for Matthew 24:30-31. He clearly said "this generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place." That includes verses 30 and 31!
Furthermore, it was not we whom He told of those things beforehand. He told those disciples right there with Him. He forewarned THEM not us!
In Paul's letter to the Thessalonians, Paul clearly includes himself and those Thessalonians in that coming "gathering." Notice the wording: "the dead in Christ shall rise first, then WE who are alive and remain shall be caught [up?] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus WE shall always be with the Lord. THEREFORE, [YOU] comfort one another with these words" (1 Thes. 4). Their comfort was relevant THEN not thousands of years later. I believe this gathering together of the dead and the living happened to Paul and those saints of his day just as Paul said it would and just as Jesus said it would in His generation (Matthew 24:30, 31)!
P. S. I share your problem with the translation of Daniel 9!
"It may surprise and even shock you that neither the word 'rapture' nor the teaching of a secret rapture is mentioned in ANY Christian literature prior to 1830 -- including the Bible!
"According to Dave MacPherson, author of The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin, the rapture teaching originated in England during the mid-1800s. MacPherson's research reveals that a Church of Scotland minister named Edward Irving was the first to preach the rapture message.
"How the teaching of the rapture came to Irving is an interesting facet of modern church history. Irving, it seems, held a radical position on the use of spiritual gifts, including speaking in tongues and prophesying. He believed that these gifts were for the present-day church, and many followed his teaching. However, when disturbances arose in Irving's services during the manifestations of these gifts, the Church of Scotland took action, dismissing Irving from his position as minister in 1832.
"The result of Irving's dismissal was the formation of the Catholic Apostolic Church, which still exists today. The movement grew and became the beginning of modern-day pentecostalism.
"However, in 1830, during one of Irving's meetings before his dismissal, a young Scottish girl named Margaret MacDonald fell into a trance. After several hours of visions and prophesying, she revealed that Christ's return would occur in two phases, not one. Christ would first come invisibly to all except the righteous, then He would come a second time to execute wrath on the nations.
"The teaching of a secret rapture was promoted by Irving on the premise that he had also heard a voice from heaven commanding him to preach it. (Note: Some researchers suggest that Irving's view of the rapture was also influenced by the Spanish Jesuit priest, Lacunza, whose work Irving had translated in 1827 under the title The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty.)
"John Darby, an Englishman and pioneer of the Plymouth Brethren movement, had also been thinking along the lines of Irving. When Darby heard reports of Irving's activities, he traveled to Scotland to talk with Irving and others about the secret rapture. It was Darby who, more than anyone else, developed the scriptural arguments for the doctrine. Darby's view has since been widely popularized in Britain and the U.S. through Cyrus Scofield's notes in The Scofield Reference Bible.
"The belief in the secret rapture has become so widespread among today's evangelicals and funamentalists that many in the pew assume that the teaching dates back to the apostles themselves. Yet regardless of where and with whom the teaching originated -- whether with Margaret MacDonald, Edward Irving, or a Jesuit priest -- this much is clear: THE SECRET RAPTURE THEORY IS OF RELATIVELY RECENT ORIGIN."
As Far as "Revelation being hard to understand", It's NOT. The book is called what? "The Revelation of Jesus Christ". The Greek word for Revelation is "APOKALUPSIS". Means an uncovering... Relevation is simply this: The Triumph of the Lamb. Check out this link and look for "Triumph of the Lamb" sermon. DEEPERLIFEFELLOWSHIP.COM
It's a great overview of Revelation.
If "snatched away to meet Him in the air" does not mean "rapture" then language has no meaning.
Today's teachers of the rapture weave numerous biblical references into their narratives, but John Darby and other early rapture advocates based their belief on two verses: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
In particular, they believed the words "shall be caught up" in verse 16 conveyed the idea that Christ would snatch the saints away. Combining this with the biblical teaching that God would protect His people in the end-time Tribulation, they projected that Christ would take the saints to heaven during that period.
There is one question yet to answer: Why would the saints rise to meet Christ in the air, when He is on His way to the earth to defeat evil and to establish the Kingdom of God here? Why not simply wait for Him to arrive?
Those who teach the rapture make much of this issue, claiming that it buttresses their theory. In fact, the truth of the matter actually further discredits their erroneous teaching.
We need to look at the meaning of the Greek term translated "to meet" that Christ inspired Paul to use in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Dr. Leon Morris writes in the Tyndale New Testament Commentaries: "The expression translated to meet is kind of a technical term 'for the official welcome of a newly arrived dignitary'…and is very suitable in this context."
Notice that it pertains to a newly arrived dignitary, not to one who is merely passing through. In no way does it convey that Christ only enters the atmosphere and then reverses course, as He snatches believers away to heaven. Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words adds that the Greek word "is used in the papyri of a newly arriving magistrate. 'It seems that the special idea of the word was the official welcome of a newly arrived dignitary'" (1985, "Meet").
The resurrected saints rise in a respectful gesture to welcome the arriving dignitary, "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS" (Revelation 19:16). The Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary notes that "when a king enters his city the loyal go forth to meet him."
As well, the word tells us where the saints go after rising to meet the returning Christ. F.F. Bruce's International Bible Commentary explains: "To meet is used in the papyri of the official reception given to a visiting governor, whom his citizens escort into the city from which they have come to meet him" (1986, notes on 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).
Jesus' loyal subjects, the resurrected saints rise from the earth to meet Him as He comes to govern the world, and they escort Him back to the earth—at that time, not years later.
The same reference we cited above from Zechariah confirms this: "And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south… Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You" (Zechariah 14:4-5, emphasis added).
In conclusion, let's summarize what 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 actually says.
• Christ's return is proclaimed by an angel's trumpet blast; it is clearly not a secret matter.
• The fact that some believers had died doesn't mean they would be left out; they will be resurrected to join Christ as He returns to establish the Kingdom of God on earth.
• Living believers will also be changed to spirit to join those resurrected from the dead.
• All the saints will form a welcoming party that rises to meet Christ and escort Him back to earth; absolutely nothing is said or implied about going to heaven.
In related scriptures, we have seen that Christ indeed continues through the air to the earth after the saints meet Him. His return is the prophesied second coming, not a clandestine snatch and grab of the saints.
We have also seen that the resurrected saints who meet Christ will immediately begin to serve with Him in the Kingdom of God on the earth (Revelation 20:6).
There is no rapture. There is a resurrection at the second coming of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
In no way does it convey that Christ only enters the atmosphere and then reverses course
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosen4greatness
All the saints will form a welcoming party that rises to meet Christ and escort Him back to earth;
I`m no longer a believer in a secret rapture either and I believe in the last day resurrection as the bible teaches. So, I don`t believe Chrsit will come and then reverse direction,as you say, but why do you think we rise and then reverse direction and come back down? Just curious.
Anything that is not substantiated by the Bible is heresy - and the pre-trib is NOT substantiated! But I really wanted the reader to focus on what the New Int'l translators did to the verse itself- how they deliberately changed the wording of Daniel 9:27 in order to propagate a false theology. THAT is the real heresy!
Your preaching of no pre-trib rapture is the heresy. When speaking to the spiritual church of Philadelpia, Jesus said,
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. (Revelation 3:10-11)
There is going to be a rapture of Jesus' glorious Bride, and that does not include many Christians. I cite the the ten virgins parable.
Today's teachers of the rapture weave numerous biblical references into their narratives, but John Darby and other early rapture advocates based their belief on two verses: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
In particular, they believed the words "shall be caught up" in verse 16 conveyed the idea that Christ would snatch the saints away. Combining this with the biblical teaching that God would protect His people in the end-time Tribulation, they projected that Christ would take the saints to heaven during that period.
There is one question yet to answer: Why would the saints rise to meet Christ in the air, when He is on His way to the earth to defeat evil and to establish the Kingdom of God here? Why not simply wait for Him to arrive?
Those who teach the rapture make much of this issue, claiming that it buttresses their theory. In fact, the truth of the matter actually further discredits their erroneous teaching.
We need to look at the meaning of the Greek term translated "to meet" that Christ inspired Paul to use in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Dr. Leon Morris writes in the Tyndale New Testament Commentaries: "The expression translated to meet is kind of a technical term 'for the official welcome of a newly arrived dignitary'…and is very suitable in this context."
Notice that it pertains to a newly arrived dignitary, not to one who is merely passing through. In no way does it convey that Christ only enters the atmosphere and then reverses course, as He snatches believers away to heaven. Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words adds that the Greek word "is used in the papyri of a newly arriving magistrate. 'It seems that the special idea of the word was the official welcome of a newly arrived dignitary'" (1985, "Meet").
The resurrected saints rise in a respectful gesture to welcome the arriving dignitary, "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS" (Revelation 19:16). The Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary notes that "when a king enters his city the loyal go forth to meet him."
As well, the word tells us where the saints go after rising to meet the returning Christ. F.F. Bruce's International Bible Commentary explains: "To meet is used in the papyri of the official reception given to a visiting governor, whom his citizens escort into the city from which they have come to meet him" (1986, notes on 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).
Jesus' loyal subjects, the resurrected saints rise from the earth to meet Him as He comes to govern the world, and they escort Him back to the earth—at that time, not years later.
The same reference we cited above from Zechariah confirms this: "And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south… Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You" (Zechariah 14:4-5, emphasis added).
In conclusion, let's summarize what 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 actually says.
• Christ's return is proclaimed by an angel's trumpet blast; it is clearly not a secret matter.
• The fact that some believers had died doesn't mean they would be left out; they will be resurrected to join Christ as He returns to establish the Kingdom of God on earth.
• Living believers will also be changed to spirit to join those resurrected from the dead.
• All the saints will form a welcoming party that rises to meet Christ and escort Him back to earth; absolutely nothing is said or implied about going to heaven.
In related scriptures, we have seen that Christ indeed continues through the air to the earth after the saints meet Him. His return is the prophesied second coming, not a clandestine snatch and grab of the saints.
We have also seen that the resurrected saints who meet Christ will immediately begin to serve with Him in the Kingdom of God on the earth (Revelation 20:6).
There is no rapture. There is a resurrection at the second coming of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
The pre-tribulation "rapture" has a lot more behind it then that. For instance ...
John 14:2-3.
"In my father's house are many mansions; if it were not so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
This reference is understood to mean literally that Jesus will return in order to bring us to where he is now. This combined with the fact that we are to meet him in the air, shows that there is likely a period of time(seven years) before we return with him in the air at Armageddon.
Titus 2:13 (King James Version)
"13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"
This together with the idea presented by ...
1 Thessalonians 5:9
"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Brings about in some the understanding that we will not face Gods judgment in the tribulation.
The Hebrew Wedding ceremony is indicative of the same. The arrangement is made between the families for the marriage. The bride grows up, never knowing exactly when the groom will come for her. Finally he arrives and is announced by his herald. He receives the bride to himself and they go to his father's house into a special room prepared for them, and they consummate the wedding. Afterwards they come out of the bridal chamber and then ensues the wedding feast which traditionally often lasts as long as a week. The imagery in the bible is the same when the 10 virgins are spoken of ... The bride groom comes at takes with him the wise virgins(into the bridal chamber) and the door is shut.
According to dispensationalism, the new city of Jerusalem is literally a Giant, aprox. 1,500 mile wide/long and tall, city which will come out of heaven(from space). Within this massive mother ship of sorts(his fathers house) Christ has prepared the place for his bride.
There is much more to it than this but i'm only trying to show that your explanation of the doctrine of the rapture is entirely oversimplified. I have hardly scratched the surface ...
Today's teachers of the rapture weave numerous biblical references into their narratives, but John Darby and other early rapture advocates based their belief on two verses: 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
In particular, they believed the words "shall be caught up" in verse 16 conveyed the idea that Christ would snatch the saints away. Combining this with the biblical teaching that God would protect His people in the end-time Tribulation, they projected that Christ would take the saints to heaven during that period.
There is one question yet to answer: Why would the saints rise to meet Christ in the air, when He is on His way to the earth to defeat evil and to establish the Kingdom of God here? Why not simply wait for Him to arrive?
Those who teach the rapture make much of this issue, claiming that it buttresses their theory. In fact, the truth of the matter actually further discredits their erroneous teaching.
We need to look at the meaning of the Greek term translated "to meet" that Christ inspired Paul to use in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Dr. Leon Morris writes in the Tyndale New Testament Commentaries: "The expression translated to meet is kind of a technical term 'for the official welcome of a newly arrived dignitary'…and is very suitable in this context."
Notice that it pertains to a newly arrived dignitary, not to one who is merely passing through. In no way does it convey that Christ only enters the atmosphere and then reverses course, as He snatches believers away to heaven. Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words adds that the Greek word "is used in the papyri of a newly arriving magistrate. 'It seems that the special idea of the word was the official welcome of a newly arrived dignitary'" (1985, "Meet").
The resurrected saints rise in a respectful gesture to welcome the arriving dignitary, "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS" (Revelation 19:16). The Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary notes that "when a king enters his city the loyal go forth to meet him."
As well, the word tells us where the saints go after rising to meet the returning Christ. F.F. Bruce's International Bible Commentary explains: "To meet is used in the papyri of the official reception given to a visiting governor, whom his citizens escort into the city from which they have come to meet him" (1986, notes on 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).
Jesus' loyal subjects, the resurrected saints rise from the earth to meet Him as He comes to govern the world, and they escort Him back to the earth—at that time, not years later.
The same reference we cited above from Zechariah confirms this: "And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south… Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You" (Zechariah 14:4-5, emphasis added).
In conclusion, let's summarize what 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 actually says.
• Christ's return is proclaimed by an angel's trumpet blast; it is clearly not a secret matter.
• The fact that some believers had died doesn't mean they would be left out; they will be resurrected to join Christ as He returns to establish the Kingdom of God on earth.
• Living believers will also be changed to spirit to join those resurrected from the dead.
• All the saints will form a welcoming party that rises to meet Christ and escort Him back to earth; absolutely nothing is said or implied about going to heaven.
In related scriptures, we have seen that Christ indeed continues through the air to the earth after the saints meet Him. His return is the prophesied second coming, not a clandestine snatch and grab of the saints.
We have also seen that the resurrected saints who meet Christ will immediately begin to serve with Him in the Kingdom of God on the earth (Revelation 20:6).
There is no rapture. There is a resurrection at the second coming of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Greetings Chosen4Greatness: Let's consider the audience relevance of 1 Thessalonians 4. Paul is not writing to US; he is writing to those very flesh-and-blood Thessalonians. They and he are personally involved in the WE. Paul is writing about a concern of those very Thessalonians of his day. Notice that he says, "I do not want YOU to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest YOU sorrow as others who have no hope."
Clearly, Paul is addressing them directly. He is addressing the question of what becomes of those who have died in Christ (e.g. martyred saints). Paul assures them that "WE who ARE ALIVE and REMAIN until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord HImself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then WE [Paul, the Thessalonians, the other living saints of that day] who ARE ALIVE and REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus WE shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, [YOU] comfort one another with these words." The words were of comfort to them only because they directly affected them!
This is the time of the promise that Jesus made to His disciples in John 14. THEY were distraught because He was leaving THEM. No one else but those of that generation when He ascended from them into heaven has been so troubled in their hearts. This was a one-time event affecting a specific people. Jesus said to those believers of His generation: "Let not YOUR hearts be troubled . . . . I go to prepare a place for YOU . . . . I will come again and receive YOU unto Myself; that where I am, there YOU may be also." They were the firstfruits of that promise. He came back to rescue THEM and to receive THEM unto Himself (as stated in 1 Thes. 4).
He did not come, as some wrongly suppose, to establish His kingdom here on earth. He came to receive them unto Himself so that they could be where He is--in heaven, in His kingdom which is NOT of this world. All who die in Christ since that time, since the time that He prepared the mansions, go immediately to be with Him, as those of that generation first of all did!
I personally believe that the pre-trib rapture and the prosperity gospel are the two greatest hoaxes ever perpetrated on the Christian faith. They are like the evil spirits released from Pandora's box. They will never be put back in. And there is no jewel of hope lying at the bottom of the box either. They are both here to stay, unfortunately, because of their enormous appeal to itching ears. The only way, at least in the case of the pre-trib rapture, that it will be proved false is by the passage of the years without any rapture materializing. Sadly, the idea of a pre-trib rapture is so inured in such a vast number Christian minds that it will never be expunged. Christians will go to their graves clinging to their belief that the pre-trib rapture is imminent. Think of it--a nearly 200 year-old "IMMINENT" rapture. Makes knowers of the truth, at least this one, truly sad. I spoke in another thread that the only value to be found in belief in a pre-trib rapture is the strength it generates in believers to get them out of bed in the morning and through life's day-to-day tribulations when, otherwise, they would be crushed. It's a "happy pill" and I can't blame many of them them for choosing to swallow it. You may not find any simililarities in the doctrines but the one thing they have in common is "feel-good" elixir. Pre-tribbers get to escape life's ordeals. Prosperity believers get to hope they will escape financial ruin. Pre-trib teachers have taken a hodge-podge of separate scriptures that talk of "keep thee from", "escape", "taken away" and other similar phrases and without any thought of checking the context surrounding them, weaved all these verses together to form a doctrine that cannot fail to appeal to a 20th century crowd exercising absolutely no discernment and/or desire to dig in and study what scripture really says about a rapture, which is....NOTHING. What most believers have in common is a desperation to insulate themselves from life's ills. It'd be almost comic if it weren't so tragic.
Anyway, Preterist, glad to see you again. As always you are a breath of rare common sense here.
Last edited by thrillobyte; 06-03-2009 at 11:02 PM..
Reason: grammar
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