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I can point you to something that I can say 'Hey bluefly, don't take my word for it, read it yourself.'
There's the rub, Alpha . . . you honestly and truly believe in your innermost soul that there is ONLY ONE WAY to glean meaning from what you read from the current English words (whatever version) . . . that everyone MUST glean the same meaning . . . and that it has NOT been corrupted by the millennia it has been in human hands and suffered modifications by and from many different minds through multiple translations. Not reasonable!
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All you can do is say it's true because you say it's true.
DITTO!
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Well, that's no standard at all. That's classic 'if it feels right for me, it must be right'....which is a problem when you also attempt to carry the mantle of 'Christian'.
Well, that's no standard at all. That's classic 'if that's what it says to me, it must be right'....which is a problem when you also attempt to carry the mantle of 'Christian'.
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Jesus taught that we die to self, crucify our flesh, and not look back as we follow Him.
TRUE!
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Your whole belief system is based on embracing 'self' and following something that 'seems right to man'.
Your whole belief system is based on believing what we agree on FOR THE REASONS YOU DO (Heavenly reward, Fear of Eternal punishment, Wrath of God, etc.etc.) . . . and no other.
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Fine to do that, but it's anti-Christian.
Stop this arrogant and unwarranted charge and much of the discord would disappear, Alpha . . . it is for God to decide . . . NOT you. You can claim it is anti-Biblean according to your version . . . but NOT anti-Christian. CHRIST is who we follow . . . NOT YOUR VERSION of BIBLE interpretation. God bless us ALL.
I don't think you've read enough of Alpha's posts to me to know how consistently he holds himself as the decider of who can call themselves Christian or not.
I have my reservations about this claim, but even if it is true then let God sort Alpha and his faith out. However, that doesn't absolve you of the fact that you made several malicious remarks to him as well when you questioned the validity of the Bible as being God-inspired. From an outside perspective, both of you are guilty of the same crime.
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Originally Posted by Bluefly
As to the rest, whatever. Obviously you missed the posts when universalists were called "dogs" and "swine".
Again, I think you missed the meaning behind my post. I said that anyone who calls themselves Christians who would actually make attempts to break down others or say anything other than that which edifies people are not living the faith God gave them. I am not saying that they are not Christians, I am saying that they are not living as examples of Christ love, universalists and exclusivists alike.
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Originally Posted by Bluefly
Defending my right to be a Christian against these attacks is no reason to apologize. I have shown endless respect and tried to forge common ground. There is none. You're coming into this party far too late.
It's not about you Bluefly or your beliefs nor is it about Alpha's (or anyone else's), it is about Jesus Christ and it is about what we can do to show our love and appreciation for what He has done for us. From an outside perspective, all you guys have done is bash one another and completely demonized the other person; tell me, does Christ condone His family members maliciously attacking one another? Does He take any pleasure in the ones He loves most resorting to name calling and trying to pass judgment on the other? To me, this seems nothing more than a contest of pride; it's like you guys are playing a game of who is the real Christian here. You can say and do what you want, but you are going to have to make a choice. Are you and Alpha (and everyone else for that matter) going to keep fighting about who is Christian and who is not, or are you going to do what Christ wants and work to at least reconcile with one another? Your pride or His glory. That's between the three of you.
I don't see how questioning the assertion of divinity in the creation and various interpretations of the Bible is on par with telling someone they are "anti-Christian", a "dog", or a "swine".
Do you see the difference? One is a very common discussion point upon which two people disagree. It is not an attack. It may challenge someone's faith, but if we only discussed with people who shared our worldview how would we grow?
The other is an attack against a human's right to claim Christ as his guide.
Big difference.
I think if you read my posts on this thread you will find my fighting for precisely what you desire - this unity and camaraderie and all that you so speak of. You will also find a consistent eroding and denigration of my efforts by those who, like Verna said above, believe they speak "God's WHOLE TRUTH" when they quote the Bible, then go on to insult and denigrate. Just imagine, string theory is revealing multiple parallel universes operating simultaneously, full of entirely different life forms and choices, and little did we know the whole truth was waiting all along on city-data.com.
One only has so many cheeks to turn, Nero. After enduring attack after attack against spiritual paths different from their own, there is nothing left to give to the cause. At some point, we must accept fundamentalism for what it is, whether it is manifest through Islam, Darwinian evolution, Buddhism, or Christianity.
So basically you're saying Universalists love God and reflect God and non-Universalsist don't.
Nice.
So basically you`re saying anyone who doesn`t believe as you doesn`t love God and will be subjuect to unbelievable horror,pain,suffering,night and day forever. All because they asked for it.
Nice
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Weren't you the one so offended by my church time posts?
LOL
You are too funny.
I wasn`t offended at all. I said you were to be commended for praising God in church.
LOL
Thanks for acknowledging my sense of humor.
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Universalists DO NOT honor God with their beliefs. You ignore Christ's teachings and you've taken hold of a man-made, unbiblical doctrine because it helps you sleep at night.
Is that what helps me sleep at night?
Lurkers are you reading these post? Can you feel the love? See the fruit on display by this post?
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There's no need for Christ now. There's no need for repentance now. There's no reason to evangelize. No caution or danger in saying 'no' to God and no humbling yourself before a holy God because you don't need it. You're gonna be saved whether you like it or not. That's what Universalists believe.
Even after all this time and many post, with that statement ( the one you keep making over ,over,over, and over again) it`s obvious you have no idea what we believe. Funny how you keep attacking a belief that you have no idea what it is.
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And why you keep chaining God's success to the number of people who are or are not in Heaven is beyond me.
Well if that`s beyond you, then I don`t know what to tell you
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If Jesus came and only you, spm62, repented and believed in Him and all the other BILLIONS of people rejected Him, He still was 100% successful.
You must be joking! You won`t get far if in business if that is how you rate success. What if noone believed? Would that still make a 100% success rate.
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Jesus came just for me and for you, and whoever believes in Him has the right to be called the children of God.
He came for everyone. You don`t have the right to anything unless God gives it to you.
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Yes, according to Jesus, few will be saved, but that's not a reflection on my God, that's a reflection on mankind.
That`s right, lets take away the power from God and give it to the people. Power to the people!
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So be careful as you pat yourself and your Universalists brothers and sisters on the back, because it just might be you who has an itchy ear doctrine that sure feels good to my flesh.
mirror mirror on the wall....
I`m not patting anybody on the back. I`m a sinner who needs mercy just like you. The difference is, I put it all in God`s hands and YOU put it in man`s hands. See the difference? I say it`s all God..no room for patting.
You say it`s man..plenty of room for patting, since in your belief man makes the decision.
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I've said before I wished Universalism was true, but according to scripture, it isn't.
Do you really wish it was true? If you really wished it was true you would have to humble yourself, come down off your pedestal and realize you are not part of an exclusive club. Remember the patting on the back thing you mentioned.?
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You were right about one thing though, the only people Universalists seem to see fruit in is other Universalists.
Nice try, but it`s obvious to all who gets called pig,swine,messengers of satan, on drugs,crazy, etc. But then again, maybe to you,that shows fruit.
Are you and Alpha (and everyone else for that matter) going to keep fighting about who is Christian and who is not, or are you going to do what Christ wants and work to at least reconcile with one another? Your pride or His glory. That's between the three of you
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Hi, many who are of the belief that God will restore everyone to Himself have tried to reconcile with those who say that we are pagans, pigs, swine, deceivers, ect., but the efforts are not received. God bless.
Prayers for my brothers and sisters..all of you..all of us..
What is being gained in this thread? Is anyone being edified? Is anyone learning anything? What glory is God being given? What seeds are being planted? Can't we shake and agree to disagree and pray that each of us can be more like Christ instead of praying for others be more like ourselves?
It's not about you Bluefly or your beliefs nor is it about Alpha's (or anyone else's), it is about Jesus Christ and it is about what we can do to show our love and appreciation for what He has done for us. From an outside perspective, all you guys have done is bash one another and completely demonized the other person; tell me, does Christ condone His family members maliciously attacking one another? Does He take any pleasure in the ones He loves most resorting to name calling and trying to pass judgment on the other? To me, this seems nothing more than a contest of pride; it's like you guys are playing a game of who is the real Christian here. You can say and do what you want, but you are going to have to make a choice. Are you and Alpha (and everyone else for that matter) going to keep fighting about who is Christian and who is not, or are you going to do what Christ wants and work to at least reconcile with one another? Your pride or His glory. That's between the three of you.
Wow. Now this ^ actually makes sense even to June!
I don't see how questioning the assertion of divinity in the creation and various interpretations of the Bible is on par with telling someone they are "anti-Christian", a "dog", or a "swine".
Do you see the difference? One is a very common discussion point upon which two people disagree. It is not an attack. It may challenge someone's faith, but if we only discussed with people who shared our worldview how would we grow?
The other is an attack against a human's right to claim Christ as his guide.
Big difference. .
Not when it was both of you challenging and the questioning the foundation of the other's faith; while I don't think anyone meant to be offensive here, it was this questioning that led to the name calling on both sides. He questioned you on how your experiences were valid and the Scripture wasn't and you questioned how the Scripture was God-inspired and while validating your own experiences. It would seem that both sides questioned the foundation of the other, which both sides took offense to because it was this foundation that supposedly led them to Christ (this might explain the animosity here). This is what brought out the tension on this thread.
Second of all, there are two things you should know: you believe in Christ and you are an adult. If you have accepted Christ into your life, if you love Him, and if you will work to build a genuine relationship with Him that the world can see and set you apart from the rest then what does it matter what people like Alpha, me, elmer, betsey lane etc etc think. If you believe yourself to be Christian then that is between you and God; none of us have any right to state otherwise. At the same time, if you want people to respect your views and be open to your ideas, then you better recipricate the hospitality. Don't dismiss the Bible and then expect these people to respect your views. Furthermore, we are all adults here, but the excessive name calling and flying tempers is just shameful, regardless as to the reasons for it.
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Originally Posted by Bluefly
I think if you read my posts on this thread you will find my fighting for precisely what you desire - this unity and camaraderie and all that you so speak of. You will also find a consistent eroding and denigration of my efforts by those who, like Verna said above, believe they speak "God's WHOLE TRUTH" when they quote the Bible, then go on to insult and denigrate. Just imagine, string theory is revealing multiple parallel universes operating simultaneously, full of entirely different life forms and choices, and little did we know the whole truth was waiting all along on city-data.com. .
Look, I am not here to argue theology with anyone; the only reason I felt compelled to get into this argument is because people, all who claim to be followers of Christ, are going at each other harder than I have ever seen on this forum and its absolute ridiculous that this is the case. You argue that people like Alpha are being insulting and condescending, despite your efforts to find common ground; to an extent, you did make an effort, but you also engaged in the same acts of insulting and developing animosity that was applied against you. I am not here to take sides, I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy on both sides in the hopes that everyone will see some form of reason and at least try to restore some degree of decency and civility between the Christians on this page. The OP asked "what happened to the Christianity forum"; well, I don't think the good Christians left, I think that we are simply not practicing what we preach. You and Alpha have a chance to honor Christ by making attempts at establishing reconciliation and you refuse to take it. I am not saying you two should be the best of friends, but even Scripture taught that you shouldn't make any sacrifice to God without first reconciling with your brother. If you guys really are Christians, then at least establish some degree of civility and do it in honor of Jesus; that should be reason enough.
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Originally Posted by Bluefly
One only has so many cheeks to turn, Nero. After enduring attack after attack against spiritual paths different from their own, there is nothing left to give to the cause. At some point, we must accept fundamentalism for what it is, whether it is manifest through Islam, Darwinian evolution, Buddhism, or Christianity.
Which gives you all the more reason to forgive. Regardless of your perceptions of Scripture, I remember vividly that Christ told Peter that you shouldn't forgive 7 times but 77 times; despite the animosity and persecution you suffer, Christ taught that we should always work to forgive one another and work to build each other up, don't even bother counting how many times you need to forgive, just keep doing it because God forgave you. When you see how much better it is to forgive, then that is when you will truly emulate Christ.
Despite our differences Bluefly, I want you to know that I don't hold any animosity towards you. I may not agree with you, but I can see from how hard you are fighting that you take your faith very seriously and that is something I enjoy seeing in a world that is slowly losing its ties with God; one day I hope to have that same degree of faith myself. I hope things workout between you and Alpha.
It's not about you Bluefly or your beliefs nor is it about Alpha's (or anyone else's), it is about Jesus Christ and it is about what we can do to show our love and appreciation for what He has done for us. From an outside perspective, all you guys have done is bash one another and completely demonized the other person; tell me, does Christ condone His family members maliciously attacking one another? Does He take any pleasure in the ones He loves most resorting to name calling and trying to pass judgment on the other? To me, this seems nothing more than a contest of pride; it's like you guys are playing a game of who is the real Christian here. You can say and do what you want, but you are going to have to make a choice. Are you and Alpha (and everyone else for that matter) going to keep fighting about who is Christian and who is not, or are you going to do what Christ wants and work to at least reconcile with one another? Your pride or His glory. That's between the three of you.
As an outsider I have to agree with June7th on this post, and in my opinion this one makes the most sense and shows what is the matter with Christianity, y'all just can't seem to agree as to who is Christian and who isn't . That's just my opinion..
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Prayers for my brothers and sisters..all of you..all of us..
and 
