U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Unread 06-11-2009, 02:26 PM
 
Location: RI
17,040 posts, read 7,577,107 times
Reputation: 1237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
WOW! Sparrow, we have made a break through. I have been racking my brains on how we are different because I truly believe you have love in your heart and now I know. I see no where in scripture that we deserve love from God? help me out here?
Fundy know matter what my own children ever did they will always be deserving of my love , that is my nature towards them

So as the word says if you being evil would do such things , how much your heavenly Father.

You as a Calvinist must surely believe you are special considering you are one of a chosen few.

Man fell went his own way ,but inspite of this our God never considered in His heart anything but love for His creation, why because according to the scripture He is Love, the proof of this was His rescue plan for all of His creation at the mount of crucifixion.

Here is love, vast as the ocean
Lovingkindness as the flood
When the Prince of Life, our Ransom
Shed for us His precious blood
Who His love will not remember?
Who can cease to sing His praise?
He can never be forgotten
Throughout Heav'n's eternal days

On the mount of crucifixion
Fountains opened deep and wide
Through the floodgates of God's mercy
Flowed a vast a gracious tide
Grace and love, like mighty rivers
Poured incessant from above
And Heav'n's peace and perfect justice
Kissed a guilty world in love
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Unread 06-11-2009, 04:56 PM
 
2,901 posts, read 2,837,928 times
Reputation: 1432
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I never said that and I would never say that because that is not in scripture. What I said is, I do believe God still created people knowing full well who would reject Him.
So you believe most will go to heaven?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 06-11-2009, 05:32 PM
 
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,463 posts, read 2,026,017 times
Reputation: 3371
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
P.s. By the way blueberry, if your heart isn't anything like one or the other two hearts and it is NOWHERE in between those two hearts (I am and HAVE ALWAYS ONLY BEEN referencing these two hearts as it RELATES to ETERNAL TORMENT, nothing else) why don't you describe your heart for others when it comes to Eternal Torment? Perhaps if you were to enlighten me, that would help me to understand what you meant by people thinking you were "cold". Because I don't necessarily think you're "cold", but maybe I'm not understanding you.
Sparrow, I'm sorry it took so long for me to get back to you. Between family obligation and a power outage, I've been a bit busy.

I can't give you a satisfactory answer here, sparrow. Unlike you, I can't dissect my heart and examine my "eternal torment" compartment. Latte'Chic quoted from 1 Corinthians 4: "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court.[a] In fact, I do not even judge myself." I can't accurately describe my heart because it's far too complicated to fit in a box.

When I said someone can call me cold, I meant that was how some people would interpret my comment, not that I was really cold. My heart? It's a trusting one. I trust my heavenly Father implicitly--completely, wholeheartedly, unreservedly! I don't do fear, or angst, or guilt. I do extremely little worrying, and especially not about someone's eternal salvation. There is absolutely NOTHING I can do about someone's destination other than share the gospel and pray; I will do both of those with and because of profound love. The results are out of my hands. If I can't control it, I don't worry about it. I trust, and I have peace. I believe to my utmost being that my Father is just. I also realize that His ways are not my ways, and His thoughts are not my thoughts, although I try to determine both through the study of His Word and I try to conform to His image.

Sparrow, I did see much love in your post. The parts Shana quoted in post # 66 reek of love, and your words are beautiful.

James 3:9-10 states, "With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be."

That's what I saw in your post about the hearts (post #49). There was praise and love, and there was cursing. Those who believe in "eternal torment" (your words, not mine) are cursed with cold, hardened hearts, unloving of their neighbors and incapable of loving God fully. They are blinded and unable to find truth. That, sparrow, is a curse! What's worse is that it's a curse based on emotion, not fact.

I'm still saddened by your post, sparrow. It's undeniable that your heart is filled with love. What saddens me is that it appears you adopted the doctrine of universal salvation based on emotion rather than the facts found in God's Word. You were so anguished over the fate of others that you just knew God couldn't do that.

I've read enough threads and posts on universalism to realize that most people seek out universalism for the same reason you did. Your actions are understandable. However, a Christian's doctrine should stem from two things--fact (God's Word) and faith. Feelings follow. Fact, faith, feelings--in that order. You seem to have turned things around.

It's interesting that most universalists go to extra-biblical sources to justify their doctrine. It's interesting they state that the plain words regarding eternal destiny cannot be understood without knowing Greek and without understanding the historical and cultural references. It's interesting that they state the concept cannot be understood without the added light of the Talmud, a book written by men who reject the teachings of Christ and in Christ's day were shown not to understand the precepts of God.

Well, I believe my Father is big enough, wise enough, and has enough foresight to ensure His Word is eternal and is accurately translated, sufficient for determining doctrine. I don't discount extra-biblical sources to shed light on passages of Scripture and historical and cultural themes, but I don't think they are essential for determining doctrine.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 06-11-2009, 05:43 PM
 
Location: NC
10,204 posts, read 7,899,492 times
Reputation: 1178
Quote:
It's interesting that they state the concept cannot be understood without the added light of the Talmud, a book written by men who reject the teachings of Christ and in Christ's day were shown not to understand the precepts of God.
Hi Blueberry, I was wondering where this was shared. I haven't read this but maybe I have overlooked it. I don't believe that the light of the Talmud is what is needed or that is relevant, but I do believe that the meanings of words in the original languages of the scriptures are important and the usage of the day. As spm62 shared on one post, if someone wrote a book in spanish and the spanish word for "car" was translated as "house" in English, don't you believe that this might be a problem? I believe that what is essential is praying for God's Spirit to guide us as we study His words, consider meanings in the original language and usage of the day, context, other related scriptures, and the scriptures as a whole. Thanks for any info. and God bless.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 06-12-2009, 12:18 AM
 
3,755 posts, read 1,867,508 times
Reputation: 876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueberry View Post
Sparrow, I'm sorry it took so long for me to get back to you. Between family obligation and a power outage, I've been a bit busy.

I can't give you a satisfactory answer here, sparrow. Unlike you, I can't dissect my heart and examine my "eternal torment" compartment. Latte'Chic quoted from 1 Corinthians 4: "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court.[a] In fact, I do not even judge myself." I can't accurately describe my heart because it's far too complicated to fit in a box.

When I said someone can call me cold, I meant that was how some people would interpret my comment, not that I was really cold. My heart? It's a trusting one. I trust my heavenly Father implicitly--completely, wholeheartedly, unreservedly! I don't do fear, or angst, or guilt. I do extremely little worrying, and especially not about someone's eternal salvation. There is absolutely NOTHING I can do about someone's destination other than share the gospel and pray; I will do both of those with and because of profound love. The results are out of my hands. If I can't control it, I don't worry about it. I trust, and I have peace. I believe to my utmost being that my Father is just. I also realize that His ways are not my ways, and His thoughts are not my thoughts, although I try to determine both through the study of His Word and I try to conform to His image.

Sparrow, I did see much love in your post. The parts Shana quoted in post # 66 reek of love, and your words are beautiful.

James 3:9-10 states, "With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be."

That's what I saw in your post about the hearts (post #49). There was praise and love, and there was cursing. Those who believe in "eternal torment" (your words, not mine) are cursed with cold, hardened hearts, unloving of their neighbors and incapable of loving God fully. They are blinded and unable to find truth. That, sparrow, is a curse! What's worse is that it's a curse based on emotion, not fact.

I'm still saddened by your post, sparrow. It's undeniable that your heart is filled with love. What saddens me is that it appears you adopted the doctrine of universal salvation based on emotion rather than the facts found in God's Word. You were so anguished over the fate of others that you just knew God couldn't do that.

I've read enough threads and posts on universalism to realize that most people seek out universalism for the same reason you did. Your actions are understandable. However, a Christian's doctrine should stem from two things--fact (God's Word) and faith. Feelings follow. Fact, faith, feelings--in that order. You seem to have turned things around.

It's interesting that most universalists go to extra-biblical sources to justify their doctrine. It's interesting they state that the plain words regarding eternal destiny cannot be understood without knowing Greek and without understanding the historical and cultural references. It's interesting that they state the concept cannot be understood without the added light of the Talmud, a book written by men who reject the teachings of Christ and in Christ's day were shown not to understand the precepts of God.

Well, I believe my Father is big enough, wise enough, and has enough foresight to ensure His Word is eternal and is accurately translated, sufficient for determining doctrine. I don't discount extra-biblical sources to shed light on passages of Scripture and historical and cultural themes, but I don't think they are essential for determining doctrine.
Hi blueberry, I appreciate your taking the time to respond. Yes, I have definitely had my heart dissected. Father has brought me to a place where this is what took place. (this is my path, and I definitely realize that we are each on our own path and may not go through the same things or see the same things.) The heart IS very complicated but not completely beyond understanding. There are some things that God can put before us and show us.

If you are at a place where you believe in eternal torment, yet do very little worrying about other's salvation, then that is where you are. Like
I said, if you do not see yourself anywhere in between the two types of things that go in with a person's heart, then my post perhaps was not meant for you. I am connecting with those who need to know they are not alone. If you are content where you are, blueberry... then you needn't be saddened by my post. I am full of peace. I am full of love, a love I never knew I could have for all of mankind, all of His beautiful creation.

Blueberry, God brought me to my knees and He raised me up. Emotion, yes we all have emotion. God gave us emotion. And God can USE emotion as a starting point to help His children grow in his Word, in His LOVE. I know some like to use "emotion" or "emotional" as a negative, and build on it's negative connotations. But what is emotion?
Emotion:
1.an affective state of consciousness in which joy, sorrow, fear, hate, or the like, is experienced, as distinguished from cognitive and volitional states of consciousness.
2.any of the feelings of joy, sorrow, fear, hate, love, etc.
3.any strong agitation of the feelings actuated by experiencing love, hate, fear, etc., and usually accompanied by certain physiological changes, as increased heartbeat or respiration, and often overt manifestation, as crying or shaking.

Yes! By all means! Of course God works through emotion. He created these things in us, why would He not use them? How often is joy, sorrow, love spoken of in the bible? To think that we are not to be emotional, is to be non-human. So, yes, of course... God used emotion. Like I said, God brought me to my knees and He gently raised me up. I repeatedly told him: "Your will, not mine! I will accept whatever is truth. YOUR WILL NOT MINE! I just want the truth. I only want TRUTH. IF I cannot BEAR it, SO BE IT! But bring me to TRUTH, OH DEAR GOD!" Over and over and over... I prayed these words. It was a long process, a struggle, blood, sweat and tears and His gentle, loving, guidance brought me to where I am, and what I believe and my steadfast 100% faith. I will never forsake it.

Now your point about my cursing. I never cursed anyone, blueberry. You are omitting the 2nd half of my post. I said that those who believe in eternal torment can have varying degrees of the 2 types of things going on in their heart. Go back and read my post again, especially the 2nd heart. I think you may be confused. Of course there was no cursing. "Cursing"?? It doesn't make sense and it doesn't fit, so I am not quite sure how to respond.

In response to this:
Quote:
cannot be understood without knowing Greek and without understanding the historical and cultural references. It's interesting that they state the concept cannot be understood without the added light of the Talmud,
I never studied Greek, historical and cultural references. I also know nothing of the Talmud. God used the KJV bible with me.

By the way... If you are not "anguished" in your mind about others suffering eternal torture... then like I said, that is your path. It is between you and God. May God wrap His loving arms around you and keep you. May He be a light on your path always.

Quote:
Well, I believe my Father is big enough, wise enough, and has enough foresight to ensure His Word is eternal
On this, we agree!

peace to you, blueberry.
Again, thank you for your response.
It's ok to agree to disagree.
We cannot walk each other's paths, no we cannot. Nor should we try.
But we can love each other as brothers and sisters and share what God has done for us. There is great praise to God when people can come together and peacefully share. And I appreciate the way in which you presented your thoughts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 06-12-2009, 12:22 AM
 
312 posts, read 213,487 times
Reputation: 389
If you would go back to the original ancient Greek you may understand it a little better. It says eternal punishMENT not eternal punishING totally different meanings. When the judgement is made it is over.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 06-12-2009, 12:57 AM
 
3,755 posts, read 1,867,508 times
Reputation: 876
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I see no where in scripture that we deserve love from God? help me out here?
"deserve" means to be worthy of.

I believe we are worthy of God's love because HE created us. He created us in His image. We are His children. What parent looks at His child and says in his heart: "This child is not worthy of my love"?? It would be a bad parent who would think such a thing. Is our Father a "bad parent"? Of course not. God tells us that HE is our FATHER. What else would I think that I am worthy of from God, if not love...? I have faith that our Father loves us and that yes, as his children... I know He looks upon us and feels we are worthy of His love. For He created us and has told us that HE is our Father.

Even in our sins... Jesus died for us. And how can anyone question, anymore that we are worthy of love? Did Jesus not show us...?

with much love,
sparrow
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 06-12-2009, 03:27 AM
 
Location: NC
10,204 posts, read 7,899,492 times
Reputation: 1178
Quote:
If you would go back to the original ancient Greek you may understand it a little better. It says eternal punishMENT not eternal punishING totally different meanings. When the judgement is made it is over
Agree that it is over, also the word used for "eternal" as it relates to punishment is "aionios", of or relating/pertaining to an age. God bless..

Does Aion or Aijwvn Mean Everlastng?

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 06-12-2009 at 03:39 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Unread 06-25-2009, 08:04 AM
 
147 posts, read 94,447 times
Reputation: 71
Default blatently rejected

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
The reason eternal torment is a just punishment is because an individual has so blatently rejected the most prized possession the Father has to give to a lost mankind: the death of His Precious Son. How can such a cosmic atrocity be balanced in God's scales of justice except by eternal torment?
Oh come on, when a child reachs say 13 or even 18 and is considered of the age of accountability and has not yet said a "sinner's prayer", and dies suddenly, there is NO WAY they have "blatently rejected the most prized possession the Father has to give to a lost mankind". There is NO WAY they even fully comprehend what that might mean. Neither do we as seasoned adults fully understand the most prized possession the Father has to give to a lost mankind, nor the infinitely awefulness of a supposed eternal torment, buringing, separation, from a God we apparently never knew anyhow, etc. That is the most disproportionate concept ever invented.

Think about just how silly such a concept is and tell the midevil priests and Augustine they can have their frivolous doctrine.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $74,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:12 AM.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top