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.... faith is the assurance of things hoped for....I do not believe I am saved by Christ's faith...but I am saved by his grace and his blood.
Obviously, we are all just expressing our beliefs based upon interpretation of scriptures, but here is how I see it. Without the faith of Christ no one would be saved. Do you disagree? We have no faith but what is put there by the grace and mercy of God. Do you disagree? We can not lean on that faith if it is not there. Assurance means Guarantee, not a trumped up emotional feeling. Without the guarantee of the completed work of His resurrection, there is no assurance. So again, not by our works, feelings, emotions, etc. that Christ redeems the world, least any man should boast.
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
By free will I mean we have choice. That doesn't mean we get to make all choices; I can't choose to be born or not to be born. Having a choice doesn't mean I am not influenced, but being influenced doesn't mean I can't choose either. It also doesn't mean that we make the best choices. I can choose not to sin, but that doesn't mean I always do. Even when I do, it doesn't mean I succeed because of my power. It is Christ in me that wills me, or enables me to do good.
I agree, especially with your last sentence. The point I was making and I think you are on to, is that we have the ability to make choices, yes, just not independant from the training ground God has placed us in. I see it like a father/child (as He mentions often) arrangement. No Father would make their child have the supposed "Free" will choice of eternal barbeque, based on the set of standards for such a choice, that is commonly taught(such as stealing a loaf of bread to feed one's starving family - stealing - a sin, crank up the brimstone!!). Any such man that would do this would be the most vile of creation. God's ways are higher than ours, not lower. It is not a matter of being uncapable of undertanding His supposed decision to burn indefinately (that's trillions x trillions of centuries), its a matter of Him, being more vile than this example man, times trillions to the trillionth exponent. Did He put a better nature in the hearts of human fathers than Himself? That's requires more faith than He's given me to believe such matters. Maybe you have been granted a greater measure of faith than I.
Obviously, we are all just expressing our beliefs based upon interpretation of scriptures, but here is how I see it. Without the faith of Christ no one would be saved. Do you disagree? We have no faith but what is put there by the grace and mercy of God. Do you disagree?
Christ, being God, has no need for faith because he has omniscience. Maybe we are saying the same thing, but I don't like to say Christ had faith which is for us that don't know everything.
Faith ultimately comes from the Lord, but Jesus Christ referred to faith as what we have. I agree whith the second statement.
Matthew 17:20 "...if you have faith..."
Mark 11:22 And Jesus answered them, "Have faith in God."
Luke 17:5 The apostles said to the Lord, "increase our faith!"
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
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Originally Posted by Cyno
I see it like a father/child (as He mentions often) arrangement. No Father would make their child have the supposed "Free" will choice of eternal barbeque, based on the set of standards for such a choice, that is commonly taught(such as stealing a loaf of bread to feed one's starving family - stealing - a sin, crank up the brimstone!!). Any such man that would do this would be the most vile of creation.
I think the key thought here is "that is commonly taught". The Bible doesn't tell us that stealing a loaf of bread sends us to "hell". Some of the posts here are crossing the argument of eternal separation/torment with universal consequences of a sin. The fact is, Christians still sin. However, as true Christians, that sin is still covered by the blood of Christ. True Christians repent, as they are made aware of their sins. That said, there is an eternal consequence that leads to separation from God/eternal torment and that is not having our name in the book of life, which is attained through true life-changing faith.
Romans 3:58 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned a sinner? And why not do evil that good may come? - as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.
Romans 3:23-26 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
I'm not saying Christ used faith(although I don't know that He didn't), but own's all faith. It is His faith.
God causes men to believe or not, to have faith or not. We have and are nothing apart from Him. (Eph 2:8-9, John 15:5)
Faith that is the result of emotional fortitude is not likely to stand against opposition any more than it takes for a bad experience to diminish that emotion. That is little more than unsustainable hoping and wishing.
When faith and emotion are the result of lining up with the absolute and sovereign will and plan of God, that faith and hope have a perfect and solid foundation, and will find completion. This faith is rooted in God, not in emotion.
Man believes that he decides if he believes and manufacturers his own faith to believe, because without his own faith it is impossible to believe and please God.
Therefore It would seem that the apostles and disciples must have had NO FAITH because they saw Him resurrected, and therefore no faith would be required to actually believe in Christ.
God causes men to believe or not, to have faith or not. We have and are nothing apart from Him. (Eph 2:8-9, John 15:5)
Jesus explained even very little faith (as small as a mustard seed) would make a tremendous difference. The disciples asked him for more faith (though he replied they didn't need more faith than they already had). Jesus' reply to the pharisees in Luke 19:40 suggest the knowledge of God, or faith's testimony to Him, is in all creation.
Luke 19:40 He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out." Col 1:23 ...which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven... Romans 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness... James 1:5-7 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given to him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord. James 1:12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those that love him. Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
The Bible tells us to ask for wisdom and many other things, but it never tells us to ask for faith. It tells us to use the faith God already gave us. God has already been generous to all in giving this faith, we do not have to conjure it up. It is not for a lack of faith that we miss God's gift, but for the sin of not exercising it.
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Originally Posted by Cyno
Faith that is the result of emotional fortitude is not likely to stand against opposition any more than it takes for a bad experience to diminish that emotion. That is little more than unsustainable hoping and wishing.
When faith and emotion are the result of lining up with the absolute and sovereign will and plan of God, that faith and hope have a perfect and solid foundation, and will find completion. This faith is rooted in God, not in emotion.
Man believes that he decides if he believes and manufacturers his own faith to believe, because without his own faith it is impossible to believe and please God.
Therefore It would seem that the apostles and disciples must have had NO FAITH because they saw Him resurrected, and therefore no faith would be required to actually believe in Christ.
I like your assessment of pseudo-faiths that some use, and I agree these are not true faith. I would rather focus on true faith, however, because it keeps us from tangent issues...and I like to sleep once in awhile
As for the comment on the disciples having no faith...seeing Jesus after resurrection does not equal knowledge of truth. "I can believe my eyes!" is a common phrase. There were others who saw Christ risen too. We are not led to understand that all who saw him then KNEW...some believed and some still did not. Even Thomas had to have more proof.
.... Jesus' reply ..... suggest the knowledge of God, or faith's testimony to Him, is in all creation....."without faith it is impossible to please him"...... It tells us to use the faith God already gave us. God has already been generous to all in giving this faith....."
So if Faith comes by hearing and hearing by THE WORD(Christ), and We already have faith........(you fill in the blank)
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
...and I like to sleep once in awhile
This is a doctrine we can definately agree upon!!
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Originally Posted by Just1Man
As for the comment on the disciples having no faith...seeing Jesus after resurrection does not equal knowledge of truth.
So they were sent out to the world with the message of the "good" news and to write the new testiment, without the knowledge of truth?
Lastly, are you saying that you disagree with my statement "When faith and emotion are the result of lining up with the absolute and sovereign will and plan of God, that faith and hope have a perfect and solid foundation, and will find completion. This faith is rooted in God, not in emotion." Is this the pseudo-faiths you are targeting? Or that most Christians believe it is up to them to have faith, when the scriptures, as you've already pointed out, demonstrate that faith comes from the Lord. I didn't quite follow you there. Peace.
So if Faith comes by hearing and hearing by THE WORD(Christ), and We already have faith........(you fill in the blank)
then each has the faith necessary to believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
So they were sent out to the world with the message of the "good" news and to write the new testiment, without the knowledge of truth?
Not the best choice of words for me, but I do not mean knowledge of the Truth...that Jesus is the Son of God. They may have seen the truth (little "t") that he was resurrected, but may have wrestled with believing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyno
Lastly, are you saying that you disagree with my statement "When faith and emotion are the result of lining up with the absolute and sovereign will and plan of God, that faith and hope have a perfect and solid foundation, and will find completion. This faith is rooted in God, not in emotion." Is this the pseudo-faiths you are targeting? Or that most Christians believe it is up to them to have faith, when the scriptures, as you've already pointed out, demonstrate that faith comes from the Lord. I didn't quite follow you there. Peace.
Beleiving it is up to us to garner our own faith (as opposed to exercising faith given to us) is an incorrect view of faith for sure. I also think emotion is helpful, the Bible speaks of mind and spirit, however. Maybe this is semantics...I don't mean to be picky on your exact wording, but what you intend to mean...
So if Faith comes by hearing and hearing by THE WORD(Christ), and We already have faith........(you fill in the blank)
This is how I put it all together:
So if Faith comes by hearing and hearing by THE WORD(Christ), and We already have faith, and Faith is the assurance /guarantee. Then all have the guarantee of becoming righteous. Not that all are today.
So if Faith comes by hearing and hearing by THE WORD(Christ), and We already have faith, and Faith is the assurance /guarantee. Then all have the guarantee of becoming righteous. Not that all are today.
No. Paul tells us that hearing and listening are not the same thing. All have heard, but not all chose to listen. So while we may have an indwelt faith, we must also believe.
Romans 10:18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed that have, for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
James differentiates between various kinds of faith in James 2.
No. Paul tells us that hearing and listening are not the same thing. All have heard, but not all chose to listen. So while we may have an indwelt faith, we must also believe.
Romans 10:18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed that have, for "Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."
James differentiates between various kinds of faith in James 2.
Just1man,
This passage in Romans seems to be about Israel and that the Israelites have heard the word and not obeyed the gospel (did not have faith) and were going to be provoked by a foolish nation
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
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