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Sundance, I have nothing against you...we've never even exchanged posts before as far as I can remember...I just find it a little difficult having to answer your constant insinuations and assumptions...maybe I've posted this thread because I need support going through this...maybe I choose to not go through it without imput from others to keep me grounded...maybe I can do without all the insinuations...maybe you and I could start over...I'm willing...but I would ask of you to please try to understand where I am coming from.
I do understand where you're coming from; you think you are right and your pastor is wrong.
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It is tough...but that is what it is. One can either choose to receive or reject the Bible...it's black and white, there is no grey area.
If there were "no gray areas" in the Bible, we would not be instructed to compare verses line upon line, precept upon precept, and so on. Two different people can read a seemingly simple verse, and get something out of it that the other did not get. That's why we all need to have a teachable spirit.
And the Bible is not what saves us, what the Lord did on the cross, is our salvation.
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If interpreted correctly, no matter how hard one may try...
If the Bible is "black and white", as you claim, there would be no interpretation necessary.
It would say X + Y = Z.
Period.
Doesn't work that way. You contradicted yourself with your own words. You also seem to imply by "is the Bible is interpreted correctly," that you are the one who is interpreting scripture correctly, and not your pastor.
If the Bible was "black and white", there would be no need for interpretation.
This is also why Jesus taught in parables.
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they can not escape all the Scripture that commands us to obey if we are to live...if we are to receive the gift of salvation...which is to come...not which is here...
So you are apparently saying, that you do not yet have salvation.
What you are advocating, is salvation by works and/or obedience, which is unscriptural.
Of course we, as Christians, are to obey the Lord and do His will, but that is not what saves us, and your pastor is right; you are in error.
Christ's shed blood on the cross, and our faith in what He did, is the only thing that saves us.
Anything that takes away from His sacrifice, His accomplishment, on the cross, is unscriptural and false, and that is apparently what you are advocating. You say only obedient Christians will be saved - have you sinned at all, since you accepted Christ?
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but it is to come on the day of the Lord...when He returns the second time...we are to run to win...to receive the prize!...to be found blameless and without spot...to be able to stand before Him with confidence...and not shame.
Christ's blood cleanses from sin. Our own righteousness is as filthy rags.
If I were in your position, where I studied God's Word and came to a conclusion different from what my Church's articles/confession of faith or catechism teaches, I wouldn't do as you've done and insist that the pastor/priest change the Church's teachings. I would leave.
I honestly don't understand how you expect that this church will change to what you tell them to change to. You recently came to an understanding of doctrine that is different from your church's, and you yourself have changed your beliefs; how can you expect the entire church to just change their beliefs? Where does it stop? What about the next person who changes beliefs and insists the church conform to his or her new beliefs??
Your entire Church is not going to change to fit your new beliefs. Your pastor is doing the right thing and is representing the Church accurately when he expresses to you that your new beliefs aren't in line with the Church's beliefs and that you can't expect the Church to change at your behest. If you are going around telling people the Church is wrong in light of your new found beliefs, then you are sowing seeds of discord, and he is doing the right thing to ask you to leave.
Why are you so intent on remaining? It's not a good reason to say that you have been there for x amount of years and have friends there, etc. - Church is not a social club. You should leave on your own and find a Church that is in line with your beliefs. Why would you even want to stay in a Church that goes against your beliefs???
I do understand where you're coming from; you think you are right and your pastor is wrong
My pastor doesn't teach the Whole truth, nothing but the truth, so, "HELP ME!" Dear GOD!!
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If there were "no gray areas" in the Bible, we would not be instructed to compare verses line upon line, precept upon precept, and so on.
...and IF we DID study the Bible in this way, we would find that there IS only ONE GOD AND ONLY ONE WORD...AND ONE TRUTH. God's Word does not contradict Himself.
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Two different people can read a seemingly simple verse, and get something out of it that the other did not get.
Exactly my point Sundance! This is why we MUST study Scripture and show ourselves approved...by studying line UPON line, precept UPON precept, comparing "spiritual things" with "spiritual things." The problem IS when one tries to base truth on one "seemingly simple verse!"...His truth will not be found this way!
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That's why we all need to have a teachable spirit.
Amen!!!!
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And the Bible is not what saves us, what the Lord did on the cross, is our salvation.
I received God's faith through His Word.God's Word is two things: it is the written Word, and it is the living Word. I have God's FAITH and His LIVING WORD IS LIVING IN ME! The Living Word NEVER changes...for it is eternal. IT ALWAYS IS! As never before we need to understand that God's Word is eternal, that it does not have beginning of life and that it has no ending. It is not just something people have written about God even under the influence of the Holy Spirit; IT IS GOD HIMSELF! God Himself has no beginning and no ending. You cannot separate God from His Word. God and His Word are ONE.
In the New Testament there are two Greek words which are translated into "word." While both of these expressions mean "word," each has its own specific distinct meaning. One is "logos." The other is "rhema."
"Logos" means that which goes beyond the spoken and the written word. The Greek lexicon tells us that it gives a depth of meaning far beyond that which is written and that which is spoken. Actually, it denotes an extension and an expression of that which comes not from the lips and that which comes not from the pen, but that which comes from the mind.
It is the mind where the concept of thought and the concept of intelligence begin. The word "logos" gives us the understanding of that which goes beyond the spoken or the written word. It is implied to us by the Holy Spirit that this is something which is self-existent. In other words, it has no beginning of days and it has no end of life. It is self-existent. It is an intelligence. It is a being that stands all by itself. The Logos is that self-existent power we know to be the WORD HIMSELF...THE LIVING WORD...CHRIST!
"Rhema" is a word from God which is an extension of the Logos for the Logos is not the spoken or the written word. Rhema is that spoken and that written Word that comes to me out of the suggestions of the mind of God. "Rhema" is derived from a verb and it means "action." It means "to speak" or "to speak a word."
Rhema comes from the very strength of the Logos Himself. As the Rhema is the spoken Word, this Logos is the expression of the mind of God. It is God Himself. It is in the mind and the expression of the Logos that the word is formed that comes to us (who believe in His written Word), in the form of the Rhema. When we receive it, we are not receiving words of man, but We...I...amreceiving thoughts of God. Within the Rhema lies God's faith. When the promise comes to us through God's Rhema ~ directly from God to us ~ we can KNOW that faith IS ALREADY THERE ALONG WITH GOD'S PROMISE! With the [our] spoken word not only comes the Word but comes the faith to believe it.We can take our believing power, the faith that comes with the promise and with the spoken Word, and we can put it as a key into the door. When we do, we unlock within the Word the POWER it has in itself to bring about the fulfillment of what it has promised. "...faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."
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If the Bible is "black and white", as you claim, there would be no interpretation necessary.
Correct...but our tiny little pea-brains just can't seem to get it all...God's Word isn't the problem...we are!...in our understanding of it.
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It would say X + Y = Z. Period.
It does actually...God's Word does not contradict itself.
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Doesn't work that way.
Sure it does. His Word is perfectly Written...it is our minds that can't comprehend it so completely. I have grasped on to a more complete understanding than my pastor has, and I'm not saying I'm THERE yet...what I am saying is though is that I've been given a gift of knowledge of His truth, and we are required to share what God has given to us!<<<THAT IS Scriptural!!
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You contradicted yourself with your own words.
How?
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You also seem to imply by "is the Bible is interpreted correctly," that you are the one who is interpreting scripture correctly, and not your pastor.
I appologize if this is what I seem to have implied...my pastor is leaving out too much Scripture...he is not studying it line upon line...precept upon precept...comparing "spiritual things" with "spiritual things," he's only teaching certain verses...and most of them are on God's love...God's grace...God's forgiveness...prosperity...GIVING...GIVING...GIVIN G...
GIVING...etc...etc...etc. The people LOVE IT!...IT'S EASY! NO PAIN! NO SUFFERING! NO REQUIREMENTS! NO NOTHING!...and it's WRONG!...WRONG!...WRONG!
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If the Bible was "black and white", there would be no need for interpretation.
There is ONE WORD...and ONE GOD. The truth is in there...ONE truth.
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That is also why Jesus taught in parables.
He taught in parables to confound the "wise." He "enlightens" those He chooses; and gives the gift of understanding to those He chooses; and gives the gift of knowledge to those He chooses; and gives the gift of wisdom to those He chooses.
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So you are apparently saying, that you do not yet have salvation.
I wouldn't dare boast of such a thing...not honestly knowing if I am or not. Scripture teaches us that it is a gift that will be given at the second coming of Jesus Christ our King. He'll judge.
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What you are advocating, is salvation by works...
No, I am not advocating anything of the sort. Salvation is a gift from God to those who are found blameless and without spot.
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...and/or obedience, which is unscriptural.
Wrong. It [obedience] most definately ISScriptural. See my thread entitled: "Our Covenant Relationship With God."
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Of course we, as Christians, are to obey the Lord and do His will, but that is not what saves us, and your pastor is right; you are in error.
...do you realize how twisted this statement is? ...unbelievable Sundance!!...I cannot believe I am even trying to........patience Verna........patience...take a deep breath...........o.k...
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Christ's shed blood on the cross, and our faith in what He did, is the only thing that saves us.
Christ's shed blood on the cross paid our debt and cleansed us from our PAST SINS, took away the guilt...starting us off brand new...washed clean...to put us in right standing with God our Father, so that we, (Him and us), could have a "relationship!"...His shed blood on the cross, ENABLED US TO LIVE A HOLY, RIGHTEOUS, BLAMELESS LIFE FREE FROM SIN. We are one side of a two sided covenant...and BOTH parties have to live up to their side! The blessings of God are contengent upon our obedience to His commandments...PERIOD. Faith is an "action", not a "feeling." Faith means OBEY...trust means OBEY...Believe means OBEY...LOVE MEANS OBEY!
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Anything that takes away from His sacrifice, His accomplishment, on the cross, is unscriptural and false, and that is apparently what you are advocating.
Obedience does not take away from His sacrifice...obedience IS being "Christ-like," which IS what we are told to be...LIKE CHRIST...we are to be a "LIVING SACRIFICE," sacrificing our fleshly desires..our carnal nature for His nature!
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You say only obedient Christians will be saved -
No, I don't say it, I choose to obey it...God's Word says it!
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...have you sinned at all, since you accepted Christ?
I accepted Christ in 1988. Since then I can not count the times I have sinned...willfully and unknowingly. I was taught that once I asked Jesus to come into my heart, I was saved! I believed it too! I was taught that God was a loving, kind, patient, forgiving, loving, gracious, merciful, kind, giving, patient, kind, loving, merciful, gracious, forgiving God...no matter how many times I willfully committed a sin, He would understand that I was as filthy as they come and there was no hope for me to EVER be like Jesus, because He is perfect and I could NEVER be perfect like Him...that I could stay just the way I was and I didn't have to worry because I was, "SAVED! Glory hallelujuah!!"...He understood I was a sinner, and there was no good in me.
Then one day, something happened that I cannot explain...well, I could, but what I will say is that God placed within me the indwelling Holy Spirit, the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit." I received the gift of the knowledge of truth, and He opened up His Word to me and I understood it like I have never understood it before. I cried out to Him and repented and confessed to Him every sin that I could possible name, and I did this for days...and I still cry out to Him! His holy Word came alive inside of me. How did it change me? I knew that I had been brought to a higher level than the level I was on...faith had been poured into me...and since then, I have had an INTENSE desire to obey God's Word...keep ALL of His commandments...and stay dead center in His will for me, way above my own will and fleshly desires. I haven't willfully sinned since then.
[quote]Christ's blood cleanses from [* * * *] sin. Our own righteousness is as filthy rags.[/quote]...[* * * *]=P.A.S.T. sins....and ENABLES US TO OVERCOME THE POWER OF SIN IN THE PRESENT AND IN THE FUTURE!
If I were in your position, where I studied God's Word and came to a conclusion different from what my Church's articles/confession of faith or catechism teaches, I wouldn't do as you've done and insist that the pastor/priest change the Church's teachings. I would leave.
First, God's Word teaches us to share what has been given to us by the Holy Spirit. Second, I've never gone to him insisting upon anything, everything I've done and said, has been done and said in a loving, gentle, respectful, descreet, honorable and kind manner. And third, I haven't been told to leave, and there is still a very loving relationship between us that God is using. I'll leave, in peace, when I know it is time to leave...if that is in fact how it turns out...and it may turn out much better than that!! I'll wait upon the Lord, and I won't go before Him. I haven't yet, and I won't.
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I honestly don't understand how you expect that this church will change to what you tell them to change to.
With God, ALL things are possible!
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You recently came to an understanding of doctrine that is different from your church's, and you yourself have changed your beliefs; how can you expect the entire church to just change their beliefs?
With God, ALL things are possible!
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Where does it stop? What about the next person who changes beliefs and insists the church conform to his or her new beliefs??
Only God knows...He has it all figured out...and I haven't a clue!
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Your entire Church is not going to change to fit your new beliefs. Your pastor is doing the right thing and is representing the Church accurately when he expresses to you that your new beliefs aren't in line with the Church's beliefs and that you can't expect the Church to change at your behest. If you are going around telling people the Church is wrong in light of your new found beliefs, then you are sowing seeds of discord, and he is doing the right thing to ask you to leave.
Not acording to God's Word. If I were telling lies, that would be one thing, but I'm not. I'm telling the truth, and I'm telling them the truth because I love them, and I care about where they spend eternity...I want them to be in heaven with their Father.
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Why are you so intent on remaining? It's not a good reason to say that you have been there for x amount of years and have friends there, etc. - Church is not a social club. You should leave on your own and find a Church that is in line with your beliefs. Why would you even want to stay in a Church that goes against your beliefs???
because I love them, I was very happy and comfortable where I was...very accepted...very respected...very loved...why else would I forsake all that?...except it be the will of our Father and for the very lives of His children. Are we not His voice? Are we not His hands? Are we not His feet? Ar we not His vessel? Are we not His Temple? Are we not His to do with whatever He chooses?
"...if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 Jn 1:7, AV) Not just P.A.S.T. sins, but ALL sin is being cleansed when we walk in the light, fellowshipping with one another. This latter I'm trying to expand on here.
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When people of faith meet, they tend to do so in one of three ways. There are the ritualistic structured meetings, like the Roman Catholic, Orthodox, or Episcopal. Then there is the Reformation model, 3 songs and a sermon, usually by the same paid man with titles of honor from other men. The third way is generally "the round-table structure," where the members gathered come under the headship of Christ and older ones guard their liberty to meet with every member participation, preventing whoever would take over the meeting from doing so. Sometimes, for beginning teachings or special occasions, they may use "the lecture structure," but that is exceptional. I say this because it makes it easier to understand what I mean in the following:
The problem is largely the confusion that comes from not understanding authority in general is in this case not spiritual authority but actually what Jesus called "Gentile" authority, and it often is very cruel. Situations like this, where meeting for every member participation as The Church which is His body is central, would not easily arise. Meeting regularly under the headship of Christ, whatever one hears from God is shared with and judged by all. It would be discussed to mutual edification or be laid aside til later. Instead it is seen as a power play endangering the position of a person in a position of Gentile authority. There would be no sowing of discord if the Pastor shared the things Verna received, right, wrong or a mixture, because if people didn't like it, Oh well, he's just being faithful to the Lord. "Gentile" means "nations." In brief, they have a king or president, a board of directors and subordinate heads of various departments. There are regional representatives and local representatives. Then there is the completely unbiblical customer/layman at the bottom. The local head of the bureachracy is the Pastor. He's another mediator rather than the direct leading of the Holy Spirit as head in each member of the Body. This has replaced everymember functioning and is a hindrance to it. The alternative is how Paul built as a wise "Master builder."
"And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. Luke 22:25-26 (KJV) There's no hierarchy among those who are Jesus's disciples, period. We're simply working other lords when any but Jesus Himself rules over each of us directly. No problem with the boss in his office in the workplace. We honor the President in his Whitehouse. It's as the Church there's little benefit from external or legal rule. When a bunch of youngsters come running in, because I'm so big I can "see over" (episkopos) them, where they're going, what they're doing. Being younger they give me authority. "Now Johnny , stop that. All of you, quiet down. Cheryl, go find your mother. Everybody just take it back outside."
And the greatest is slave of all. It's not how much I can bring healing or prophecy and the rest that determines my greatness.The measure of ministry is how much of the image of Christ, all he is and does, I can bring forth from others. When the Holy Spirit indwells us, all that Jesus is and does is in us. How mature we are is how accessible we are to Him.
We need to meet on the basis of bringing forth the fullness of Christ in each of us.
Location: Went around the corner & now I'm lost!!!!
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Amen JRM, you have spoken with the heart of this whole matter.
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statement is? 
...unbelievable Sundance!!...I cannot believe I am even trying to........patience Verna........patience...take a deep breath...........o.k... 
