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Old 12-28-2011, 02:59 PM
 
5,431 posts, read 2,519,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Knowing the choice someone will make, does not mean making the choice for them. Knowledge of what will happen is not the same as willing whatever happens to happen. People seem to not be able to grasp the notion that God's will on this earth is constantly violated, hence Christ's instruction that we should pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. If God's will was always done on earth, than that prayer would be superfluous.
Halfneslon, God desires for evil to happen now. He is the one directing mans ways. Not just one man or a few men but all mans ways. If your given the choice to drink or to not drink you choose based on your thirst. See your choices are driven by your condition, your lusts, your needs, your wants. God can control all of the things that lead to the decisions you ultimately make. God can harden your heart (as He did Pharoh) or give you a new heart that desires His will.

We are just clay in the potters hand. He will mold us as He sees fit now how we see fit.
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Old 12-28-2011, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 3,618,785 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Just a quick thought on the OP. If I gave someone a check for a million dollars, and they chose not to cash it, we're they still given a million dollars? Christ died so that all could be saved, giving a "million dollar check" of salvation to everyone from Adam/Eve to people like Hitler. If you cashed my million dollar check could you then boast that you bought the Ferrari you got or the mansion you purchased, on your own? Sure you could but it would be a lie and you would be a jerk. The thing with salvation is that it is a checked cashed daily so to speak in maintaining a relationship with God. Scripture states that Christ is to return someday soon AND HIS REWARD IS WITH HIM. That reward is eternal life. Those who have long since died, "cashing that check daily" will be resurrected to receive that reward, and those(who believe in Him) who are still alive at His return will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye, from having a mortal body to having one that is immortal. Christ made it clear that only those that believe in him will be saved. Believing in Christ is not a single statement someone verbally declares; believing in Christ is the process of living a life to His glory and honor. It is living a life devoted to a daily relationship with Christ above all others. God is love and love requires choice ALWAYS, once we choose to follow Christ, we never loose are ability to choose to stop following Him. If that were the case, then Satan would have no purpose in tempting and tormenting the "saved". Satan often attacks the newly born again much harder because he knows that so long as a person has breath in their lungs and Christ has not yet sealed the righteous, then he still has an opportunity to ensnare and deceive those who have accepted Christ. Granted, for those who have let Christ in and maintain that walk with Him, Satan's goal is impossible, but that is why the daily devotion is so important, Satan can and will try to wedge himself into the slightest crack in that walk with Christ. Revelation makes it clear that there is a time soon approaching this earth, in which their will only be two classes of people on earth; those with the seal of God and those with the Mark of the Beast. Once that happens, those that are unjust will be unjust still, and those that are just shall be just. There will no longer be anyone on earth whose mind has not been made up regarding the decision to follow God or oppose him, and many who fall in the "oppose Him" group will claim that they are following Him.

Salvation is not a single moment in a person's life, but it is the process that unfolds through out their life. Imagine a soldier on a battlefield in WWII. The soldier is navigating some trenches trying to stay below the bullets flying over head when he is pulled to the ground by his Commander. The Commander then points to the ground and shows the soldier the land mine he was about to step on. The soldiers life was saved at that moment in time, however the soldier was not safe, he was still on the battlefield. Sticking his head up at the wrong moment or taking a wrong wrong turn through the trenches could still end his life. What he needs to do to make it through the battlefield safely is to never take his eyes of his Commander. You see his Commander has successfully conquered the trenches of the battlefield and He is the only one that can guide the soldier to safety. If the soldier takes his eyes off the Commander, he risks finding himself lost in those trenches once again. Some of his buddies actually follow the Commander for a little bit but then think that they've "got it from here" and are never seen again because they choose to stop following the Commander. Of all the soldiers that are lead to safety by the Commander, none are dragged against their will. They all stand there, based on the choice they made to follow, but only because they had someone to follow. Never would you ever hear any of those soldiers who were lead to safety, claim that it was their choice that saved them. They would all humbly understand that while their salvation was a cooperative effort it would not have ever been possible if the Commander had not sacrificed Himself by conquering those trenches on His own, for which He received scars that remain to this day. They choose to follow, and that choice contributed to their salvation, but they emerged from those trenches with a full understanding of who receives 100% of the glory and credit for their salvation.

Oh how I long for Christ's Second Coming, when we will finally be off the battlefield and the war will be over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
Knowing the choice someone will make, does not mean making the choice for them. Knowledge of what will happen is not the same as willing whatever happens to happen. People seem to not be able to grasp the notion that God's will on this earth is constantly violated, hence Christ's instruction that we should pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. If God's will was always done on earth, than that prayer would be superfluous.
Beautifully stated dear brother in Christ...God Bless you.

In Christ,
Verna.
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Old 12-28-2011, 05:41 PM
 
Location: NC
10,222 posts, read 8,184,379 times
Reputation: 1183
Quote:
Knowing the choice someone will make, does not mean making the choice for them. Knowledge of what will happen is not the same as willing whatever happens to happen. People seem to not be able to grasp the notion that God's will on this earth is constantly violated, hence Christ's instruction that we should pray that God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. If God's will was always done on earth, than that prayer would be superfluous.

Hi, this is how I understand this. God if He is omniscient and I believe that He is, knows exactly what would happen before He ever created, if He sees beginning to end. By bringing all into existence, in His omniscience, He already knows the choices, so He in fact is responsible for whatever happens. He brings it all into existence, knowing what is going to happen. I believe that there is a difference between God's revealed will and what God intends to do. For example, the Israelites were instructed or taught that they were to obey the law. This was God's revealed will to them, but we later learn that no one can be righteous by keeping the law. God's intention wasn't that they keep the law, but that through the law, comes the knowledge of sin (Romans 3) We do not know all of His ways but we trust Him. God is good and God is love. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 12-28-2011 at 05:49 PM..
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Old 12-29-2011, 02:14 AM
 
701 posts, read 363,070 times
Reputation: 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Halfneslon, God desires for evil to happen now. He is the one directing mans ways. Not just one man or a few men but all mans ways. If your given the choice to drink or to not drink you choose based on your thirst. See your choices are driven by your condition, your lusts, your needs, your wants. God can control all of the things that lead to the decisions you ultimately make. God can harden your heart (as He did Pharoh) or give you a new heart that desires His will.

We are just clay in the potters hand. He will mold us as He sees fit now how we see fit.
God does not desire evil. It profanes His name to suggest such. God is not a puppet master, control all the affairs of mankind. There is no love in that picture of God. That picture is one of a selfish and self centered God. God did not harden Pharoh's heart as an overt act. Every act of mercy shown by God towards Pharoh hardened Pharoh's heart because of Pharoh's attitude towards God. An example: If someone where to say that I spoiled a movie they were going to see by giving away the ending. On the surface it might appear that it was an overt act by me, but a thorough understanding of the story would reveal that the person who had the movie spoiled was eavesdropping on an unrelated conversation. Sure I spoiled the movie, but it was because of the other person's wrong choice. The whole concept reminds me of a quote I once heard "Abashed the Devil stood and felt how awful goodness is". Pharoh's heart was so set against God, that every moment that God showed Pharoh mercy, it had a hardening effect on Pharoh's heart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi, this is how I understand this. God if He is omniscient and I believe that He is, knows exactly what would happen before He ever created, if He sees beginning to end. By bringing all into existence, in His omniscience, He already knows the choices, so He in fact is responsible for whatever happens. He brings it all into existence, knowing what is going to happen. I believe that there is a difference between God's revealed will and what God intends to do. For example, the Israelites were instructed or taught that they were to obey the law. This was God's revealed will to them, but we later learn that no one can be righteous by keeping the law. God's intention wasn't that they keep the law, but that through the law, comes the knowledge of sin (Romans 3) We do not know all of His ways but we trust Him. God is good and God is love. God bless.
God did take the ultimate responsibility for sin when He died on the cross for all mankind. Sin was never His choice, but He bore it just the same for our sake. God's Moral Law, the 10 Commandments, is as eternal as God and is the foundation of his Heavenly throne. God's intention has always been that we keep and obey His Law. "if you love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15. The Israelites were saved by grace before Calvary just as much as we are saved by grace since Calvary. The biggest change has simply been the sacrificial system. Before Calvary, mankind was saved through faith in Christ; faith that he would come. From Calvary to the present mankind is saved by faith in Christ; faith that He did come and die for our sins. Not only does God want us to keep His Law, He wants to write His Law upon our hearts. We should never get the idea in our heads that God's 10 Commandments were strictly for the Israelites. They are God's instruction for all mankind on how to love God (the first four commandments) with all our heart, and how to love our neighbor (the last six commandments) as ourselves.
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Old 12-29-2011, 04:06 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 3,618,785 times
Reputation: 805
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
God does not desire evil. It profanes His name to suggest such. God is not a puppet master, control all the affairs of mankind. There is no love in that picture of God. That picture is one of a selfish and self centered God. God did not harden Pharoh's heart as an overt act. Every act of mercy shown by God towards Pharoh hardened Pharoh's heart because of Pharoh's attitude towards God. An example: If someone where to say that I spoiled a movie they were going to see by giving away the ending. On the surface it might appear that it was an overt act by me, but a thorough understanding of the story would reveal that the person who had the movie spoiled was eavesdropping on an unrelated conversation. Sure I spoiled the movie, but it was because of the other person's wrong choice. The whole concept reminds me of a quote I once heard "Abashed the Devil stood and felt how awful goodness is". Pharoh's heart was so set against God, that every moment that God showed Pharoh mercy, it had a hardening effect on Pharoh's heart.



God did take the ultimate responsibility for sin when He died on the cross for all mankind. Sin was never His choice, but He bore it just the same for our sake. God's Moral Law, the 10 Commandments, is as eternal as God and is the foundation of his Heavenly throne. God's intention has always been that we keep and obey His Law. "if you love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15. The Israelites were saved by grace before Calvary just as much as we are saved by grace since Calvary. The biggest change has simply been the sacrificial system. Before Calvary, mankind was saved through faith in Christ; faith that he would come. From Calvary to the present mankind is saved by faith in Christ; faith that He did come and die for our sins. Not only does God want us to keep His Law, He wants to write His Law upon our hearts. We should never get the idea in our heads that God's 10 Commandments were strictly for the Israelites. They are God's instruction for all mankind on how to love God (the first four commandments) with all our heart, and how to love our neighbor (the last six commandments) as ourselves.
Amen brother...so glad you are here.
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Old 12-29-2011, 07:56 AM
 
Location: NC
10,222 posts, read 8,184,379 times
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Hi, I will have to respectfully disagree, in that Paul teaches that we are justifed by faith apart from works of the Law (Romans 28) that the Jews tried to keep, which is righteousness not based on works of the Law but the righteousness that is from the law of faith (Romans 3:27)

We can see a difference, I believe, in what may be God's revealed will and God's intention when we read about how God instructed Pharaoh to release His people when they were in bondage but was that really God's plan or intention? Paul tells us in Romans 9 why God raised Pharaoh up:

Romans 9 (caps from the translation)
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED [k]THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. "

Exodus 9-14

God did the hardening and even in His omniscience, knew everything that would happen anyway. All is out of Him according to Romans 11:36.

God bless.
"
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:44 AM
 
299 posts, read 93,812 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi, this is how I understand this. God if He is omniscient and I believe that He is, knows exactly what would happen before He ever created, if He sees beginning to end. By bringing all into existence, in His omniscience, He already knows the choices, so He in fact is responsible for whatever happens. He brings it all into existence, knowing what is going to happen. I believe that there is a difference between God's revealed will and what God intends to do. For example, the Israelites were instructed or taught that they were to obey the law. This was God's revealed will to them, but we later learn that no one can be righteous by keeping the law. God's intention wasn't that they keep the law, but that through the law, comes the knowledge of sin (Romans 3) We do not know all of His ways but we trust Him. God is good and God is love. God bless.

Objection! i.e. "no one can be righteous by keeping the law."
Poster is contridicting the recorded statement of an apostle who has stated otherwise.
"It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:49 AM
 
9,537 posts, read 4,908,661 times
Reputation: 17599
Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfNelson View Post
God does not desire evil. It profanes His name to suggest such. God is not a puppet master, control all the affairs of mankind. There is no love in that picture of God. That picture is one of a selfish and self centered God. God did not harden Pharoh's heart as an overt act. Every act of mercy shown by God towards Pharoh hardened Pharoh's heart because of Pharoh's attitude towards God. An example: If someone where to say that I spoiled a movie they were going to see by giving away the ending. On the surface it might appear that it was an overt act by me, but a thorough understanding of the story would reveal that the person who had the movie spoiled was eavesdropping on an unrelated conversation. Sure I spoiled the movie, but it was because of the other person's wrong choice. The whole concept reminds me of a quote I once heard "Abashed the Devil stood and felt how awful goodness is". Pharoh's heart was so set against God, that every moment that God showed Pharoh mercy, it had a hardening effect on Pharoh's heart.



God did take the ultimate responsibility for sin when He died on the cross for all mankind. Sin was never His choice, but He bore it just the same for our sake. God's Moral Law, the 10 Commandments, is as eternal as God and is the foundation of his Heavenly throne. God's intention has always been that we keep and obey His Law. "if you love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15. The Israelites were saved by grace before Calvary just as much as we are saved by grace since Calvary. The biggest change has simply been the sacrificial system. Before Calvary, mankind was saved through faith in Christ; faith that he would come. From Calvary to the present mankind is saved by faith in Christ; faith that He did come and die for our sins. Not only does God want us to keep His Law, He wants to write His Law upon our hearts. We should never get the idea in our heads that God's 10 Commandments were strictly for the Israelites. They are God's instruction for all mankind on how to love God (the first four commandments) with all our heart, and how to love our neighbor (the last six commandments) as ourselves.
Amen... Awesome post !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cxjonz View Post
Objection! i.e. "no one can be righteous by keeping the law."
Poster is contridicting the recorded statement of an apostle who has stated otherwise.
"It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
Amen....
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Old 12-29-2011, 10:02 AM
 
Location: NC
10,222 posts, read 8,184,379 times
Reputation: 1183
Hi, the same apostle Paul states:

Romans 3:

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are [h]under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works [i]of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for [j]through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
21 But now apart [k]from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those [l]who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all [m]have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a [n]propitiation [o]in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, [p]because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who [q]has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith"

God bless.
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Old 12-29-2011, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 3,618,785 times
Reputation: 805
Quote:
Originally Posted by cxjonz View Post
Objection! i.e. "no one can be righteous by keeping the law."
Poster is contridicting the recorded statement of an apostle who has stated otherwise.
"It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
...sometimes you do get things right...there is hope for you cxjonz...but you are a confused seeker in what God's whole truth is concerning this matter...keep studying !
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