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Old 06-11-2009, 10:02 AM
 
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YouTube - Calvinists Don't Believe in Free Will?
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Old 06-11-2009, 03:55 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post

So even our good deeds are shrouded in sin and evil? If all your good deeds are bad and your bad deeds are bad, then why worry about bad deeds at all. God has chosen you for heaven or it has chosen you for eternal damnation. So what's the point of trying. The whole concept is completely non-motivating, and dare I say inhuman. Kind of like communism. I don't believe God plays games like that. God created us in his own image and while we are stained with original sin, we are not turned into doggy doo. We have good nature and a sinful nature and we are capable of good and evil. So I have to say, my protestant nature says: Homy don't play dat.
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Old 06-11-2009, 04:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by juj View Post
So even our good deeds are shrouded in sin and evil? If all your good deeds are bad and your bad deeds are bad, then why worry about bad deeds at all. God has chosen you for heaven or it has chosen you for eternal damnation. So what's the point of trying. The whole concept is completely non-motivating, and dare I say inhuman. Kind of like communism. I don't believe God plays games like that. God created us in his own image and while we are stained with original sin, we are not turned into doggy doo. We have good nature and a sinful nature and we are capable of good and evil. So I have to say, my protestant nature says: Homy don't play dat.

I have intensely argued against calvinism for years. Frankly, I don't like talking to hyper-calvinists. A lot of times they tend to come across as arrogant.

Having said that, I'm beginning to see after studying the scriptures more in the past year that yes--God is sovereign over all creation. The Jews in OT times were very much election-minded. They were chosen by God. Likewise, God chose believers from among the Gentiles.
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Old 06-11-2009, 04:21 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
I have intensely argued against calvinism for years. Frankly, I don't like talking to hyper-calvinists. A lot of times they tend to come across as arrogant.

Having said that, I'm beginning to see after studying the scriptures more in the past year that yes--God is sovereign over all creation. The Jews in OT times were very much election-minded. They were chosen by God. Likewise, God chose believers from among the Gentiles.
But what does soverign mean? Does it mean we are merely puppets and God is pulling the strings on everyone and everything or does it mean that God can and may effect outcomes, but only does so sparingly, but can do so when He wishes. The rest is up to us with a few points in time when God comes in and realigns things to his liking.

I kind of like the latter explanation because otherwise we stuck in a world similar to the "Matrix" movie and life is completely pointless and we, as humans, are merely entertainment.
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by juj View Post
But what does soverign mean? Does it mean we are merely puppets and God is pulling the strings on everyone and everything or does it mean that God can and may effect outcomes, but only does so sparingly, but can do so when He wishes. The rest is up to us with a few points in time when God comes in and realigns things to his liking.

I kind of like the latter explanation because otherwise we stuck in a world similar to the "Matrix" movie and life is completely pointless and we, as humans, are merely entertainment.

I know what you mean--my inclination is to the same thing. From what I've seen though, it sure seems like God DOES control every aspect of life. That's certainly the overall message throughout scripture.

Last edited by kdbrich; 06-12-2009 at 07:47 AM..
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:05 AM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
I know what you mean--my inclination is to the same thing. From what I've seen though, it sure seems like God DOES control every aspect of life. That's certainly the overall message throughout scripture.
Overall message? Then what are the 10 commandments for? Why are there many verses that discuss falling from grace if you do such and such? If God is pulling all the strings all the time, then 90% of the Bible is useless religious dribble. I will be an atheist before I believe that God is pulling all the strings all the time.

I understand the phrase of "THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD GO I". God can come at any time and change your circumstances. So stay humble. But that doesn't mean He's pulling every string all the time. I think Eve proved that. Satan tempted and Eve bit. The strings either didn't exist or they were cut. Unless of course, God wanted to move his things out of paradise because He grew tired of the same backdrop. I don't believe that was God's intention. But who am I.....
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:08 AM
 
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Originally Posted by juj View Post
Then what are the 10 commandments for? Why are there many verses that discuss falling from grace if you do such and such? If God is pulling all the strings all the time, then 90% of the Bible is useless religious dribble. I will be an atheist before I believe that God is pulling all the strings all the time.

I understand the phrase of "THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD GO I". God can come at any time and change your circumstances. So stay humble. But that doesn't mean he's pulling every string all the time. I think Eve proved that. Satan tempted and Eve bit. The strings either didn't exist or they were cut. Unless of course, God wanted to move his things out of paradise because He grew tired of the same backdrop. I don't believe that was God's intention. But who am I.....

I know it's hard to wrap your brain around it. We go to hell for violating God's laws--but God is still sovereign.
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:27 AM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
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Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
I know it's hard to wrap your brain around it. We go to hell for violating God's laws--but God is still sovereign.
God is sovereign is too general a statement and soverign doesn't necessarily man He pulls all the strings all the time. He does rule over heaven and hell and all creation, but I don't believe He moves his pieces around like a giant game of Civilization.

Besides, if we are violating God's laws, according to you, it's because He wills us to. Not buying it. Think of the cruelty. You will commit adultry.....NOW. Zammm... What? You commited adultry? You are damned to hell!!

God is not cruel. That scenario does not fit into the definition of God is Love. Also, God wants us to love Him. Without free will, there can be no love. Does God go, "You will Love Me.......NOW!" Zamm........."I love God, I love God, beep beep beep, boop beep"

Come home to the Catholic Church.

Last edited by juj; 06-12-2009 at 10:39 AM..
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:27 AM
 
Location: RV Park
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Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
I know it's hard to wrap your brain around it. We go to hell for violating God's laws--but God is still sovereign.
He gets what He wants, yes?
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Old 06-12-2009, 10:51 AM
 
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Originally Posted by juj View Post
God is sovereign is too general a statement and soverign doesn't necessarily man He pulls all the strings all the time. He does rule over heaven and hell and all creation, but I don't believe He moves his pieces around like a giant game of Civilization.

Besides, if we are violating God's laws, according to you, it's because He wills us to. Not buying it. Think of the cruelty. You will commit adultry.....NOW. Zammm... What? You commited adultry? You are damned to hell!!

God is not cruel. That scenario does not fit into the definition of God is Love. Also, God wants us to love Him. Without free will, there can be no love. Does God go, "You will Love Me.......NOW!" Zamm........."I love God, I love God, beep beep beep, boop beep"

Come home to the Catholic Church.

What right do you have to determine if he's cruel or not?

He's merciful because he saves. God is Love because of the mercy he shows.
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