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In the first centuries of the church, the local bishop was chosen by and from the people. Ideally, the people gathered in the cathedral, where, after praying together, they selected a holy and talented man to lead them. In practice, factions supporting opposing candidates would often clash, sometimes violently split-ting the community.
As time went on, the selection process evolved to include not only the people, but also the local clergy and the provincial bishops in a system of checks and balances. Pope Leo I (440-461) described the ideal by saying that no one could be a bishop unless he was elected by the clergy, accepted by his people, and consecrated by the bishops of his province.
The first bishop in America (Caroll) was chosen by the people.
The Didache, (15:1-2) stated: "You [the Faithful] must, then, elect for yourselves bishops and deacons" and the First Letter of Clement of Rome wrote that bishops should be chosen "with the consent of the whole Church".[1]
juj maybe you should move on, I heard the SSPX was looking for some sheep that followed with blind obedience.
You should fit in perfectly, they do not accept Vatican II and they also deny that the holocaust ever happened.
Better yet go back to the Church you belonged to before you converted.
In the first centuries of the church, the local bishop was chosen by and from the people. Ideally, the people gathered in the cathedral, where, after praying together, they selected a holy and talented man to lead them. In practice, factions supporting opposing candidates would often clash, sometimes violently split-ting the community.
As time went on, the selection process evolved to include not only the people, but also the local clergy and the provincial bishops in a system of checks and balances. Pope Leo I (440-461) described the ideal by saying that no one could be a bishop unless he was elected by the clergy, accepted by his people, and consecrated by the bishops of his province.
The first bishop in America (Caroll) was chosen by the people.
The Didache, (15:1-2) stated: "You [the Faithful] must, then, elect for yourselves bishops and deacons" and the First Letter of Clement of Rome wrote that bishops should be chosen "with the consent of the whole Church".[1]
This is the Tradition of the Catholic Church, but you would have to go back before the Medieval Time period.
In case you are wondering what is meant by the "WHOLE CHURCH" it means just that "us" the people of God.
The Church exists for the benefit of the people not the other way around.
We do not exist for the benefit of the hierarchy.
Without us there is no Church.
Breaking News
MaggieMoo's is now producing:
1. The Blueberry Muffin in the Morning
2. Brownie Bliss
3. Cravin' Rum Raisin
The Blueberry Muffin in the morning has blueberries, Teddy Grahams and mallow creme topping.
Brownie Bliss has brownies, chocolate sprinkles and fudge topping.
Cravin' Rum Raisin has
Breaking News:
MaggieMoo's is now selling three new items:
1. The Blueberry Muffin in the Morning with blueberries, Teddy Grahams and mallow creme topping.
2. Brownie Bliss which has brownies, chocolate sprinkles and fudge topping.
3. Cravin' Rum Raisin made with raisins, coconut flakes and caramel topping.
It is ALL ice cream...just happens to be different flavors.
This morning I was again reflecting, however not in the Gospels.
I was reading in 2 Corinthian chapter 8, where Paul was instituting
a massive collection for the relief of Jerusalem. In the Catholic
church, this would have been the first Bishop's Appeal, the bishop then
residing in Jerusalem.
As I read along, I came to Paul's "equality" thought (vs. 12-15).
So, because I've been listening to your complaints about the Catholic
Christian hierarchy, I keenly tuned into this passage.
Second Corinthians (verse 15) cross-referenced over to Exodus chapter 16. The Israelites were grumbling at Moses, their Pope. "But you had to lead us into this desert to make the whole community die of famine!" Can you imagine how Moses felt? After all, he was just a man--- (he himself thought...low self-esteem. I guess, now days, they call it humble)---a man with every inadequacy known. Now, Moses was locked up in the desert getting cut down by this angry, hungry mob. I am totally sure that Moses was in communication with God about this problem and probably whining, as well.
Moses defended himself to the people. (vs. 8) "When the Lord gives you flesh to eat in the evening and in the morning your fill of bread,
as God heeds the grumbling you utter against him, what then are we?
Your grumbling is not against us, but against the Lord."
Lo, and behold, God's love poured forth..."thus will I test them, to see whether they follow my instructions or not." Notice the first person--'MY,' not Moses' instructions, yet Moses was God's actual physical voice. You see, the Holy Spirit wasn't dwelling in the Israelites hearts yet,
so they really couldn't actually hear much. Moses had to be the go-between. Thus, the people were given quail in the evening and manna
in the morning. Moses explained and taught them about the whole miracle. Without Moses, the Israelites would have probably died...not from lack of food, but from ignorance about what that strange stuff actual was lying on the ground. They wouldn't even have known to eat it!
Now, contrast this with the Macedonian church that Paul is holding up as example to the Corinthians. What was so great about the Macedonians? They were spontaneously charitable (gracious) even though impoverished (hungry.)
Then Paul (God), as if Moses many centuries later, explains: (Vs. 8) "I (God?)
say this not by way of command, but to test the genuineness of your love
by your concern for others."
Can you see the opposites being paralleled here? Paul saw it, too. Paul
continued branching out with his teaching to included equality and brought in the story of manna. Paul wasn't asking the Corinthians to be as
self-sacrificing as the Macedonian's. He was asking them to NOT be like the Israelites who were totally uncharitable (ungracious) to
"others" (Moses, Aaron and God). Paul (God) was only requesting that (14)
Corinthians' "surplus at the present time should supply their (Jerusalem's) needs, so that their surplus may also supply your needs, that there may be equality."
If the hierarchy of the church is always supposed to give and never receive even a brief word of thanksgiving out of a surplus of words,
there can Never be the equality that you desire.
It takes TWO to tango. It takes giving and receiving in equal amounts. It requires mature love.
Maybe instead of telling me what and where to go you and returntopa should face reality.
It seems neither one of you have anything of substance to say.
we deal with reality daily---you need to do as some of the other posters suggested so you can deal with your own reality instead of whining about a church you really do not support
I made a really cool mistake today regarding this thread.
It occurred to me that in my former post, it may have appeared that I was demeaning the ancient Israelites---the people or their culture. AND , as some human minds work the way they do, and they a-l-w-a-y-s seem to do this because the evil one gets in there and twists things, they may have stretched everything all out of proportion and assumed that I was calling the Israelite people of today—not their long ago behavior under stressful circumstances—I was calling them ungracious. I felt badly about that because that was not my intent at all.
I was trying to make a point, but the tools that I had to use were limiting me. Words are limiting. Human words are limiting. Words can never fully express what truly exists in the heart with rock, solid sureness.
It doesn’t matter what language you use, nor where, nor how, nor why, nor anything…it is totally difficult to do justice to what God is, thinks, His ways, His love….everything and anything Godly, like trying to tell someone else it is a good thing to imitate God as best that they can.
So it was with this thought that I opened the Good Book today. I was continuing the study of Second Corinthians, but goofed and opened, instead, First Corinthians by unconscious accident. But what a happenstance(?)! I started reading the first’s chapter 11 and was generally okay with the man-verses-woman-cover-head thing that Paul was explaining and trying to figure out why this passage was meant for me today. It wasn’t jelling with my bad feelings surrounding my ungracious people problem. But then, I looked at the end of the first’s chapter ten and THERE--like a bolt out of the blue! 1 Corinthians 10:32….Avoid giving offense, whether to Jews or Greeks or the church of God, (33) just as I try to please everyone in every way, not seeking my own benefit but that of the many, that they may be saved. Then…1 Corinthians 11:1 “Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.” Here was Paul’s teaching on mutual respect. Even HE was finding words limiting because he said….”just as I TRY.” He insinuated that he may fail at times just like me.
I then turned to the Gospel of Matthew and it said: “ do not babble.” Matt 6:7
I hadn’t even realized that I wasn’t in Second Corinthians. What a moment of divine care again!!!
I was drawn to reflect on how limiting human words can be. I also was thinking how it is so easy for listeners to misunderstand one another. If there EVER is to be equality, then, hearts have to communicate with hearts…words just don’t cut the mustard. Words can only try. The conversation must ALSO be deeper than mere words. This is only possible through the Holy Spirit’s intercessions.
So today, if the Pope and other hierarchy say something and it may offend you or doesn’t seem spot on….you must TRY for deeper and fuller understand of what it is that is in their hearts. You must pray that the Holy Spirit will help you go beneath the tools of human words and FEEL what it is that is being communicated.
And when there is true conversation, then there will be equality among people.
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and perhaps coming from being 
