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Old 06-14-2009, 12:28 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,019,811 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
In more practical terms (to offer an example), it is one thing for a Christian to slip up and commit an act of sexual immorality for which he or she is penitent. It is altogether another thing for a person to live as a prostitute and claim to be “having fellowship with the Father” (1 John 1:6).
In Biblical terms there is no difference - both are committing presumptuous (willful) sin. God is not looking at the quantity of sin - rather he is looking at the quality of the sin. Sins of ignorance can be forgiven but presumptuous sin was never forgiven in the OT or the NT. Fornication is presumptuous sin.

SINS OF IGNORANCE (These were forgiven)

Numbers 15:27 And if any soul sin through IGNORANCE, then he
shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.

15:28 An the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that
SINNETH IGNORANTLY, when he sinneth by ignorance before the
Lord, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

SINS OF PRESUMPTION (Not forgiven)

Numbers 15:30 BUT the soul that doeth aught
PRESUMPTUOUSLY, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger,
the same reproacheth [blasphemeth] the Lord; and that soul shall be
cut off from among his people.

15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath
broken his commandment, that soul shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."

Presumptuous sin in the NT


Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

What you call "...a Christian to slip up and commit an act of sexual immorality" God calls "hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace.

HK
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Old 06-14-2009, 01:13 PM
 
2,940 posts, read 3,091,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
No, some of us actually respect that He is God and HIS will, WILL BE DONE!
Are you sure you really believe this? Because modern churchology doesn`t teach that. They believe that God will torture just about every human he has ever created. That is not his will. If it were,why would he have created so many people knowing he was going to torture them night and day forever?

Quote:
Some of us do obey! Some of us will run this race and endure be it what it may! Some of us are sold out to Christ Jesus! No, none are perfect! Some of us truly want to reign with Him FOREVER!
Well, I`m glad you think so highly of yourself and believe you are totally sold out, doing anything and everything you can to feed the hungry,clothe the naked, help the sick, and give just about all you have to the poor. Kudos to you.

Quote:
So we better get in line with HE has to say.
Like you said, his will shall be done.
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Old 06-14-2009, 01:34 PM
 
2,940 posts, read 3,091,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I think (imagine that!) that we're both carrying this argument...ahem...discussion to extremes at times. Certainly no one wants to believe that a merciful and just God would throw an 11 or 12 YO into eternal fires. Sometimes we eternal damnationists (I don't know what the technical name is) ARE guilty of making blanket statement and tossing all 11-12 YO into the flames. Each one is a distinctly different individual and only God knows their true nature and whether they warrant such a severe punishment. As I stated before I've read of 11-12 YO's who were more evil that Hitler, or who murdered just as callously and without remorse as him. They were just "born bad"--hard to grasp this concept, but it can be true. Is eternal torment a just punishment for them? I would say so, if they committed these heinous crimes cold-bloodedly. But did they have a cognitive defect somewhere in their genes that might have impaired their judgement to whatever degree? Only God knows and I'm certain He would take that into consideration in judging them.
When I read about an Air France jet going down and 300+ individuals perishing at once I often ponder how it was that God gathered just the right 300 together when their times come. Did they all happen to be universal reconciliationists (just kidding-- ) or a mix of unsaved's along with many Christians living in sin which God just couldn't tolerate any longer, and a smattering of obedients who God decided to bring home at that precise moment? The dynamics from a Christian POV staggers the mind--mine, anyways. And remember there were 11-12 YO's on that flight too. had they reached the age of accountability sufficiently that they'd be responsible for their actions? Only God knows. All we can do is theorize.
In my own life, I lived a life of sin for many years as a Christian. I was one of these "carnal Christians" Why God didn't take my life when I was on a jet I have no idea, except His mercy abundantly overflows. Praise HIM! Perhaps He, knowing I'd reach the state where I'd permanently strive to stay as far away from sin as I can, decided to grant Me mercy and waited patiently as I committed some pretty horrible sins () before waking up to the truth of what I was and what He had done for me.
I'm rambling...to get this back on point: I can't. I've digressed too far, but rather than waste all this useless effort I'll put it up anyway. Continue the argu....er, debate!
This is the one of the problems with eternal torture. Most only want to think about the worst of the worse being tortured unmercifully day and night forever. But you either believe it or you don`t. So you have to admit that 10,11,12 yr olds are going to thrown into the lake of fire with everyone else. So if they didn`t say the sinners prayer God will throw children in the fire too. Doesn`t matter how much they cry plead and beg for mercy. It will just simply be too late. They had their 6 months or year of accountability to get to know Jesus and they didn`t. So they will be getting what they asked just like eveyone else. You can say this is extreme if you want to, but the fact of the matter is tens of thousands of children all over the world die like that every day. It`s a fact and you (church) are teaching the world that God will do that to children and everyone else. I understand you read that in your KJV and hear it in church, that`s is why you believe it. It`s just my opinion that people who teach that God will torture people like that will be held accountable.
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Old 06-14-2009, 01:49 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,190,727 times
Reputation: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
In Biblical terms there is no difference - both are committing presumptuous (willful) sin. God is not looking at the quantity of sin - rather he is looking at the quality of the sin. Sins of ignorance can be forgiven but presumptuous sin was never forgiven in the OT or the NT. Fornication is presumptuous sin.

SINS OF IGNORANCE (These were forgiven)

Numbers 15:27 And if any soul sin through IGNORANCE, then he
shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.

15:28 An the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that
SINNETH IGNORANTLY, when he sinneth by ignorance before the
Lord, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

SINS OF PRESUMPTION (Not forgiven)

Numbers 15:30 BUT the soul that doeth aught
PRESUMPTUOUSLY, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger,
the same reproacheth [blasphemeth] the Lord; and that soul shall be
cut off from among his people.

15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath
broken his commandment, that soul shall be utterly cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him."

Presumptuous sin in the NT


Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

What you call "...a Christian to slip up and commit an act of sexual immorality" God calls "hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace.

HK
You ignored the rest of the post without answer and thats fine ...

Obviously in the letter to the Hebrews Paul is referring to the fact that the oblation of the temple had lost its power and that only Christ sacrifice for sin was acceptible. If what you say is true and we are to take literally that Christians cannot sin because they are born again then we would not see Paul and the rest of the new testament authors warning of the dangers of sin.

If you cant understand that there is a difference between living a life of sin wherein you are controlled only by your fleshly appetites, and the life of a sinner who believes who is convicted of the spirit of God in his sins ... Then you have no understanding of what grace really is in my humble opinion. The point is forgiveness, not only of those who have sinned against us, but forgive ourselves for our own mistakes. If you live your life in exaltation believing yourself to be blameless by virtue of your own actions, then you have fallen from grace ...



Quote:
<< Galatians 5 >>
King James Bible
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. 11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. 12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do(Greek : prassō - to practice, to continue in, to be busy with) such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
We all know what the Pharicees were like, we have ample example in the gospels. We all know what the leaven of the Pharicees is, and thats righteousness by works. If you do not understand the liberty had in Christ and what it means to be counted righteous by our faith, then your missing the point. We are to follow the commandments of Christ which is plainly live thy neighbor as thyself and believe on the lord ... We know that love covers a multitude of sins. You would yoke us with heavy burdens and enslave us to doubt and and fear. That is not of the spirit of Christ. When Christ returns im sure his feelings will be the same as they were when he was here the first time. And we all know who he had choice words for don't we ... If anyone in their self righteous musings think themselves better then even the most sinning of all sinners, i believe they may have another thing coming. High Horse Christianity is all good until you get knocked off ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 06-14-2009 at 02:49 PM..
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Old 06-14-2009, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
4,267 posts, read 3,537,239 times
Reputation: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Are you sure you really believe this? Because modern churchology doesn`t teach that. They believe that God will torture just about every human he has ever created. That is not his will. If it were,why would he have created so many people knowing he was going to torture them night and day forever?


Well, I`m glad you think so highly of yourself and believe you are totally sold out, doing anything and everything you can to feed the hungry,clothe the naked, help the sick, and give just about all you have to the poor. Kudos to you.


Like you said, his will shall be done.
Your love is beginning to show............., be careful.
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Old 06-14-2009, 02:55 PM
 
2,940 posts, read 3,091,836 times
Reputation: 1537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
Your love is beginning to show............., be careful.
Yours already has...
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Old 06-14-2009, 04:02 PM
 
Location: RI
18,949 posts, read 8,798,458 times
Reputation: 1328
Know does this make sense to you ?

One of many reasons ET 'ers cannot accept the fact that there is no eternal torment is because of the likes of Hitler not being put through eternal torment because of the atrocities he allowed to the Jews.
Well what did Hitler do that horrifies us ? Well we know He sent and burnt to many jews to comprehend in the ovens.

So my question to you who believe that God is going to send millions upon millions not only to the Lake of fire (Gods Hitler style oven) but they are going to burn and burn eternally. What is your problem with Hitler ?
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Old 06-14-2009, 04:10 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,190,727 times
Reputation: 869
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Know does this make sense to you ?

One of many reasons they cannot accept the fact that there is no eternal torment is because of the likes of Hitler not being put through eternal torment because of the atrocities he allowed to the Jews.
Well what did Hitler do tha horrifies us ? Well we know He burnt to many to comprehend in the ovens.

So my question to you who believe that God is going to send millions upon millions not only to the Lake of fire (Gods Hitler style oven) but they are going to burn and burn eternally. What is your problem with Hitler ?


Exactly, most of the Jews killed in the holocaust were not even Christian, so they went from the fires of Hitlers oven straight to the fires of Gods eternal hell, according to fundamental Christianity. That was the excuse of the catholic church during the inquisition ... We must torture this lost soul until he/she confesses and repents, and when he dies for his heresy he will be redeemed for his confession. They were justified in their own minds because they were "saving" the lost souls from the far greater torture in hell ...

This is the sickening ideological progeny that derives from such a demonic doctrine of as eternal torture ...
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Old 06-14-2009, 04:14 PM
 
Location: NC
11,034 posts, read 8,612,914 times
Reputation: 1236
Quote:
One of many reasons ET 'ers cannot accept the fact that there is no eternal torment is because of the likes of Hitler not being put through eternal torment because of the atrocities he allowed to the Jews.
Well what did Hitler do that horrifies us ? Well we know He sent and burnt to many jews to comprehend in the ovens.

So my question to you who believe that God is going to send millions upon millions not only to the Lake of fire (Gods Hitler style oven) but they are going to burn and burn eternally. What is your problem with Hitler ?
Good points, pcamps. God bless.
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Old 06-14-2009, 04:20 PM
 
Location: RI
18,949 posts, read 8,798,458 times
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My heart was laid so heavy this afternoon after seeing through the eyes of the fundamental christian .

What i saw was millions upon millions of unbelievers being cast into the lake of fire , our Lord and Savior was there overseeing it and as much as He wanted to stop this atrocity He could not do anything about it because His hands were bound by the unbelief of those being cast into the lake of fire.

Someone dare say this is correct . Someone please tell me this is the heart of God . Someone prove from the scripture this is what is waiting for the unbeliever .

Last edited by pcamps; 06-14-2009 at 04:38 PM..
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