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Old 06-14-2009, 04:30 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,820,436 times
Reputation: 1323

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What is sad to me also, pcamps, is that knowing that God sees beginning to end, according to this view, He intentionally brought these people into existence for the purpose of everlasting suffering, knowing that they would remain unbelievers. He knows what will happen, He brings it into existence. It happens and He is said to be the Savior of all men, when the majority has no hope for salvation. This is said to be love, agape. It is a contradiction. God is love, just, righteous, merciful, all powerful, and wise. God bless.
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Old 06-14-2009, 04:35 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,209 posts, read 19,986,915 times
Reputation: 2107
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
What is sad to me also, pcamps, is that knowing that God sees beginning to end, according to this view, He intentionally brought these people into existence for the purpose of everlasting suffering, knowing that they would remain unbelievers. He knows what will happen, He brings it into existence. It happens and He is said to be the Savior of all men, when the majority has no hope for salvation. This is said to be love, agape. It is a contradiction. God is love, just, righteous, merciful, all powerful, and wise. God bless.
Yes is very own creation

I am so ashamed that i ever believed in it .
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Old 06-14-2009, 04:47 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,820,436 times
Reputation: 1323
But pcamps, I believe that God allowed this for His glory. All will one day see and realize the nature and extent of His unfailing love and wisdom. We believed this because we did not know... until He revealed. God bless.
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Old 06-14-2009, 05:16 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,209 posts, read 19,986,915 times
Reputation: 2107
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
But pcamps, I believe that God allowed this for His glory. All will one day see and realize the nature and extent of His unfailing love and wisdom. We believed this because we did not know... until He revealed. God bless.
Yes i agree i did not know and like i said on another post i believed what was preached from the pulpit , what the books i read said ,and in my ignorance automatically thought and believed,the words,destroy,destruction,perish,judgement and wrath were referring to eternal torment.

It funny though the moment i heard about ET being the biggest lie ever told , there was absolute no resistance from me . So if the Lord can break my stubborn heart so easily, city data posters are no problem to Him.

Last edited by pcamps; 06-14-2009 at 05:39 PM..
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Old 06-14-2009, 06:31 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,820,436 times
Reputation: 1323
Amen, pcamps God bless.
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:53 AM
 
988 posts, read 1,574,817 times
Reputation: 116
The doctrine of eternal torment for all who are not "saved" is an
open door to false doctrines such as baptismal salvation and once
saved always saved. The imaginations of the mind about loved ones
burning and screaming in torment a million years from now force people
through that door and cause them to slam it shut behind them -
refusing to look at the Scriptures.

When people imagine their children, or their parents or even
themselves screaming in agony from being cast into the lake of fire
they need a quick fix. Satan has provided just the remedy they are
seeking. All one has to do is believe and be baptized and they are
saved forever from ever having to worry about "everlasting
destruction".

Then like the proverbial ostrich they bury their heads in John 3:16
and refuse to look at the rest of the Scriptures on the subject of
salvation.

When we stop to think about it how could a God of love create people
whose only destiny is to join the billions who have never even heard
of Jesus in a vast lake of charred, screaming souls burning forever.
Justice and mercy demand an end to their suffering relative to the
light they had and degree of sin they committed.

The Roman Catholic church has long trumpeted the doctrine of eternal
torment to create fear in their people. Through this fear they are
able to manipulate and control the lay people who have been taught
that the only deliverance from eternal torment is through the church
and its sacraments. To be excommunicated is to be condemned to
unimaginable suffering for eternity.

The unspeakable tortures and burning at the stake practiced by the
Inquisition and other so called Christians could easily be justified
by saying "If God is going to burn heretics in hell for all
eternity, why shouldn’t the church burn them to death now?" Eternal
torment is truly a doctrine of demons.

Modern Christianity uses the same device to create a psychological
need for the easy believeism doctrines such as Once Saved Always
Saved. Fear of eternal torment may cause a person to say they
believe but cannot bring one to true repentance. If they have already
been "saved from destruction" there is no necessity to cease from sin


Here are some interesting Scriptural questions for those who insist on
a God who burns His creation forever without mercy.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1. How could somebody have everlasting destruction without being
destroyed?

2. God is omnipresent - if the condemned souls have everlasting
destruction from the presence of the Lord - how can there be a place
where God is not? What can exist apart from God? One could only be
separated from the presence of the Lord if they cease to exist.

3. The doctrine of Eternal Torment demands that all people have
eternal life. And yet, Jesus said He gives His sheep eternal life.
If all have eternal life how could Jesus give His sheep what they
already have?

There are many arguments against the doctrine of Eternal Torment which
can be made - but the best argument is to consider the morality of
burning people who were created for no other end but eternal
suffering.

"Morally, the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is incompatible
with the Biblical revelation of divine love and justice. The moral
intuition God has implanted within our consciences cannot justify the
insatiable cruelty of a God who subjects sinners to unending torments.
Such a God is like a bloodthirsty monster and not like the loving
Father revealed to us by Jesus Christ."Bacchiocchi

How could a God whose nature is Justice and Mercy do what those who
are born of God could not do - even to a puppy - much less another
human.

HK
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Old 06-15-2009, 03:37 PM
 
37,528 posts, read 25,250,403 times
Reputation: 5857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
"Morally, the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is incompatible with the Biblical revelation of divine love and justice. The moral intuition God has implanted within our consciences cannot justify the insatiable cruelty of a God who subjects sinners to unending torments.Such a God is like a bloodthirsty monster and not like the loving Father revealed to us by Jesus Christ."Bacchiocchi

How could a God whose nature is Justice and Mercy do what those who
are born of God could not do - even to a puppy - much less another
human.


HK
This cannot be the same Harold Kupp who has been touting inanities about the true nature of God elsewhere in the forum.
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Old 06-15-2009, 06:15 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,201,811 times
Reputation: 892
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
The doctrine of eternal torment for all who are not "saved" is an
open door to false doctrines such as baptismal salvation and once
saved always saved. The imaginations of the mind about loved ones
burning and screaming in torment a million years from now force people
through that door and cause them to slam it shut behind them -
refusing to look at the Scriptures.

When people imagine their children, or their parents or even
themselves screaming in agony from being cast into the lake of fire
they need a quick fix. Satan has provided just the remedy they are
seeking. All one has to do is believe and be baptized and they are
saved forever from ever having to worry about "everlasting
destruction".

Then like the proverbial ostrich they bury their heads in John 3:16
and refuse to look at the rest of the Scriptures on the subject of
salvation.

When we stop to think about it how could a God of love create people
whose only destiny is to join the billions who have never even heard
of Jesus in a vast lake of charred, screaming souls burning forever.
Justice and mercy demand an end to their suffering relative to the
light they had and degree of sin they committed.

The Roman Catholic church has long trumpeted the doctrine of eternal
torment to create fear in their people. Through this fear they are
able to manipulate and control the lay people who have been taught
that the only deliverance from eternal torment is through the church
and its sacraments. To be excommunicated is to be condemned to
unimaginable suffering for eternity.

The unspeakable tortures and burning at the stake practiced by the
Inquisition and other so called Christians could easily be justified
by saying "If God is going to burn heretics in hell for all
eternity, why shouldn’t the church burn them to death now?" Eternal
torment is truly a doctrine of demons.

Modern Christianity uses the same device to create a psychological
need for the easy believeism doctrines such as Once Saved Always
Saved. Fear of eternal torment may cause a person to say they
believe but cannot bring one to true repentance. If they have already
been "saved from destruction" there is no necessity to cease from sin


Here are some interesting Scriptural questions for those who insist on
a God who burns His creation forever without mercy.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

1. How could somebody have everlasting destruction without being
destroyed?

2. God is omnipresent - if the condemned souls have everlasting
destruction from the presence of the Lord - how can there be a place
where God is not? What can exist apart from God? One could only be
separated from the presence of the Lord if they cease to exist.

3. The doctrine of Eternal Torment demands that all people have
eternal life. And yet, Jesus said He gives His sheep eternal life.
If all have eternal life how could Jesus give His sheep what they
already have?

There are many arguments against the doctrine of Eternal Torment which
can be made - but the best argument is to consider the morality of
burning people who were created for no other end but eternal
suffering.

"Morally, the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is incompatible
with the Biblical revelation of divine love and justice. The moral
intuition God has implanted within our consciences cannot justify the
insatiable cruelty of a God who subjects sinners to unending torments.
Such a God is like a bloodthirsty monster and not like the loving
Father revealed to us by Jesus Christ."Bacchiocchi

How could a God whose nature is Justice and Mercy do what those who
are born of God could not do - even to a puppy - much less another
human.

HK
On this issue Mr. Kupp, we do agree at least in part.
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Old 06-15-2009, 07:58 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,574,817 times
Reputation: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This cannot be the same Harold Kupp who has been touting inanities about the true nature of God elsewhere in the forum.

What a useful contribution... far more useful than most of your comments.

HK
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:41 PM
 
37,528 posts, read 25,250,403 times
Reputation: 5857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
What a useful contribution... far more useful than most of your comments.
HK
I am too "confuzzled" (that's confused and puzzled) about how you reconcile this accurate understanding of the true nature of God with your other ridiculous OT assertions about a wrathful one.
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