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Old 06-13-2009, 02:50 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,034,840 times
Reputation: 113
Default How "Eternal Torment" works....

What is the connection between the doctrine of eternal torment and Christians who reject the teaching that we must obey God's commandments.

Here is how it works: If someone believes in Eternal Torment is told that we must obey God or be lost they immediately think that if that is true then all of their loved ones (dead or alive) who commit sin are or will be tortured for eternity.

Since that consequence is impossible to bear they seek a teaching that gives them relief such as once saved always saved.

To think that our loved ones will punished and then cease to exist is hard to bear but not impossible. To think they are burning forever is unthinkable.

So those who believe in Eternal Torment seek Eternal Security at the lowest possible level of obligation. Ideally their loved ones will not burn if they have ever just said the sinners prayer and then go on with their lives pretty much as before.

And for the most part that is just what Modern Christianity gives them. Here are some quotes from Charles Stanley who is the senior pastor of megachurch First Baptist Church Atlanta in northern Atlanta, Georgia. He is the founder and president of In Touch Ministries. Dr. Stanley also served two terms as president of the Southern Baptist Convention from 1984-1986.


"The Bible clearly teaches that God's love
for His people is of such magnitude that even
those who walk away from the faith have not the
slightest chance of slipping from His hand." p. 74


"The unfaithful believer will not receive a special
place in the kingdom of Christ like those who are
fortunate enough to be allowed to reign with Him.
But the unfaithful believer will not lose his salvation."
p. 93


"The apostle's meaning is evident. Even if a believer
for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his
salvation is not in jeopardy. Christ will remain faithful."
p.93

"And last, believers who lose or abandon their faith will
retain their salvation, for God remains faithful." p. 94.

Quotes taken from: "Eternal Security"
by Charles Stanley Oliver Nelson Press,
A division of Thomas Nelson Publishers.

According to Stanley even if you reject Jesus completely you will still be saved and cannot be lost if you have ever been a believer. And he was "President" of the Southern Baptist Convention. Not some religious kook.

Every major denomination offers a way to avoid Eternal Torment other than completely ceasing from sin.

As in all successful lies, there is an element of truth. The essence of
Christ's teaching was that there would be some who would not be lost.
The lie is to say that those who continue to disobey God will not be be destroyed in hell.

The Calvinist version of The Great Lie is based upon the concept
that some are chosen by God to be saved and thus no matter
what commandments they choose to break, they will not go to hell.

The Lutheran twist is that Jesus has "paid it all" and by believing
in that doctrine, no matter how many sins one commits, he will not go to hell.

Roman Catholicism is more clever. They say that one must keep
the commandments of God, but if you break them (they say)
you may confess that sin to the priest and you will not go to hell.

In each of the examples above, the doctrine is designed to remove the
fear of God from those who continue to disobey the commandments of
God. And those doctrines receive their power to deceive from the teaching of Eternal Torment.

It is easy to see that the desperate need for an easy way to be delivered from eternal hell-fire creates the desire for some scheme which allows the sinner to be saved even though he continues to sin.

The doctrine of Eternal Torment insults God and serves Satan's purpose to make men believe the same lie that seduced Eve - "If you disobey God YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE".

All who teach Eternal Torment for all men unwittingly serve Satan...

HK
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Old 06-13-2009, 03:00 PM
 
1,143 posts, read 910,519 times
Reputation: 193
I think there is much truth in what you're saying, I have the impression you believe in the final extinction of the wicked? (though I do not share this view, believing in the reconciliation of the whole, Col. 1:20, I can accept this view)

you might like this page: http://www.thepathoftruth.com

I think you will agree with them, if not in all, at least in some aspects.
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Old 06-13-2009, 03:04 PM
 
Location: MI
1,289 posts, read 1,295,183 times
Reputation: 288
"Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with Him,
We will also live with Him;
If we endure,
We will also reign with Him.

If we disown Him,
He will disown us;
If we remain faithless,
He will remain faithful,
For He cannot disown Himself."

2 Timothy 2:11-13

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Old 06-13-2009, 03:32 PM
 
6,197 posts, read 4,822,809 times
Reputation: 1672
Quote:
All who teach Eternal Torment for all men unwittingly serve Satan...
I was following you until this part. No one teaches eternal torment for ALL men, sinner or saved. There's a controversy about whether the saved who then continue in deliberate, perpetual sin receive eternal torment. The answer is YES, as you have so eloquently stated. The controversy in my mind is "Does the torment continue for all eternity ("They have no rest day or night forever") or limited (Fear Him who is able to DESTROY both body and soul in hell)?"
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Old 06-13-2009, 04:10 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,259,469 times
Reputation: 870
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
What is the connection between the doctrine of eternal torment and Christians who reject the teaching that we must obey God's commandments.

Here is how it works: If someone believes in Eternal Torment is told that we must obey God or be lost they immediately think that if that is true then all of their loved ones (dead or alive) who commit sin are or will be tortured for eternity.

Since that consequence is impossible to bear they seek a teaching that gives them relief such as once saved always saved.

To think that our loved ones will punished and then cease to exist is hard to bear but not impossible. To think they are burning forever is unthinkable.

So those who believe in Eternal Torment seek Eternal Security at the lowest possible level of obligation. Ideally their loved ones will not burn if they have ever just said the sinners prayer and then go on with their lives pretty much as before.

And for the most part that is just what Modern Christianity gives them. Here are some quotes from Charles Stanley who is the senior pastor of megachurch First Baptist Church Atlanta in northern Atlanta, Georgia. He is the founder and president of In Touch Ministries. Dr. Stanley also served two terms as president of the Southern Baptist Convention from 1984-1986.


"The Bible clearly teaches that God's love
for His people is of such magnitude that even
those who walk away from the faith have not the
slightest chance of slipping from His hand." p. 74


"The unfaithful believer will not receive a special
place in the kingdom of Christ like those who are
fortunate enough to be allowed to reign with Him.
But the unfaithful believer will not lose his salvation."
p. 93


"The apostle's meaning is evident. Even if a believer
for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his
salvation is not in jeopardy. Christ will remain faithful."
p.93

"And last, believers who lose or abandon their faith will
retain their salvation, for God remains faithful." p. 94.

Quotes taken from: "Eternal Security"
by Charles Stanley Oliver Nelson Press,
A division of Thomas Nelson Publishers.

According to Stanley even if you reject Jesus completely you will still be saved and cannot be lost if you have ever been a believer. And he was "President" of the Southern Baptist Convention. Not some religious kook.

Every major denomination offers a way to avoid Eternal Torment other than completely ceasing from sin.

As in all successful lies, there is an element of truth. The essence of
Christ's teaching was that there would be some who would not be lost.
The lie is to say that those who continue to disobey God will not be be destroyed in hell.

The Calvinist version of The Great Lie is based upon the concept
that some are chosen by God to be saved and thus no matter
what commandments they choose to break, they will not go to hell.

The Lutheran twist is that Jesus has "paid it all" and by believing
in that doctrine, no matter how many sins one commits, he will not go to hell.

Roman Catholicism is more clever. They say that one must keep
the commandments of God, but if you break them (they say)
you may confess that sin to the priest and you will not go to hell.

In each of the examples above, the doctrine is designed to remove the
fear of God from those who continue to disobey the commandments of
God. And those doctrines receive their power to deceive from the teaching of Eternal Torment.

It is easy to see that the desperate need for an easy way to be delivered from eternal hell-fire creates the desire for some scheme which allows the sinner to be saved even though he continues to sin.

The doctrine of Eternal Torment insults God and serves Satan's purpose to make men believe the same lie that seduced Eve - "If you disobey God YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE".

All who teach Eternal Torment for all men unwittingly serve Satan...

HK
The wages of sin is death, not eternal torture. The only reason why the wicked are to be judged by fire is for their correction, otherwise he would just leave them dead. The word used in the new testament is "aionion kolasis" which means age lasting correction. Its funny how this word is chose instead of the other Greek words which do not mean correction but mean vegeance and punishment only, like timōria, ekdikēsis, or epitimia.

If anyone is unwittingly serving Satan, it all those who teach eternal torture and drag Gods merciful name through the mud and make him to be a sadomasochistic tyrant and extortioner.
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Old 06-13-2009, 05:50 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,034,840 times
Reputation: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I was following you until this part. No one teaches eternal torment for ALL men, sinner or saved. There's a controversy about whether the saved who then continue in deliberate, perpetual sin receive eternal torment. The answer is YES, as you have so eloquently stated. The controversy in my mind is "Does the torment continue for all eternity ("They have no rest day or night forever") or limited (Fear Him who is able to DESTROY both body and soul in hell)?"

Thanks for the correction - should have read "...all unsaved men."


Yes it is eternal but is the torment eternal or the destruction?

There are two words in that verse that go together- "eternal" and
"destruction"...

Or as the KJV says: everlasting destruction.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Destruction means: to destroy - not to remain alive. Is it not
possible that this verse means that the people who are being punished
suffer and then are destroyed and that destruction is everlasting -
they can never exist again.

Now it is true there is a class who will be sent to the lake of fire
and will be tormented for ever.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of
fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and
shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And there is another class also sent to the lake of fire:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is
the second death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in
the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. These verses do not
speak of eternal torment.

The second class is not tormented for ever but receive the second
death. Obviously death is not life. They receive eternal death by
being destroyed.

To me the real problem with the idea of eternal torment for all who
do not receive salvation is not all mankind is given the opportunity
to receive eternal life. If eternal torment for all unsaved is true
that means that God created some people whose only destiny was to
live, die and receive eternal torment without ever having any other
choice.

HK
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Old 06-13-2009, 06:11 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,259,469 times
Reputation: 870
The words and images used in the symbolic language which refers to Gods judgment are all about reformation and purification. God reforms(makes new as in rev. 21:5 - "behold, i make all things new") the wicked in the fire of his judgment. The word "tormented" in revelations when its speaks of the dragon being tormented day and night as well as every other time that it is used in revelations is "basanizō", which means to test for purity. That is what links the lake of fire and the fire of Gods judgment throughout scripture to 1 Corinthians 3:13-25 .

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
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Old 06-13-2009, 06:38 PM
 
Location: RI
18,950 posts, read 8,988,697 times
Reputation: 1331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
What is the connection between the doctrine of eternal torment and Christians who reject the teaching that we must obey God's commandments.

Here is how it works: If someone believes in Eternal Torment is told that we must obey God or be lost they immediately think that if that is true then all of their loved ones (dead or alive) who commit sin are or will be tortured for eternity.

Since that consequence is impossible to bear they seek a teaching that gives them relief such as once saved always saved.

To think that our loved ones will punished and then cease to exist is hard to bear but not impossible. To think they are burning forever is unthinkable.

So those who believe in Eternal Torment seek Eternal Security at the lowest possible level of obligation. Ideally their loved ones will not burn if they have ever just said the sinners prayer and then go on with their lives pretty much as before.

And for the most part that is just what Modern Christianity gives them. Here are some quotes from Charles Stanley who is the senior pastor of megachurch First Baptist Church Atlanta in northern Atlanta, Georgia. He is the founder and president of In Touch Ministries. Dr. Stanley also served two terms as president of the Southern Baptist Convention from 1984-1986.


"The Bible clearly teaches that God's love
for His people is of such magnitude that even
those who walk away from the faith have not the
slightest chance of slipping from His hand." p. 74


"The unfaithful believer will not receive a special
place in the kingdom of Christ like those who are
fortunate enough to be allowed to reign with Him.
But the unfaithful believer will not lose his salvation."
p. 93


"The apostle's meaning is evident. Even if a believer
for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his
salvation is not in jeopardy. Christ will remain faithful."
p.93

"And last, believers who lose or abandon their faith will
retain their salvation, for God remains faithful." p. 94.

Quotes taken from: "Eternal Security"
by Charles Stanley Oliver Nelson Press,
A division of Thomas Nelson Publishers.

According to Stanley even if you reject Jesus completely you will still be saved and cannot be lost if you have ever been a believer. And he was "President" of the Southern Baptist Convention. Not some religious kook.

Every major denomination offers a way to avoid Eternal Torment other than completely ceasing from sin.

As in all successful lies, there is an element of truth. The essence of
Christ's teaching was that there would be some who would not be lost.
The lie is to say that those who continue to disobey God will not be be destroyed in hell.

The Calvinist version of The Great Lie is based upon the concept
that some are chosen by God to be saved and thus no matter
what commandments they choose to break, they will not go to hell.

The Lutheran twist is that Jesus has "paid it all" and by believing
in that doctrine, no matter how many sins one commits, he will not go to hell.

Roman Catholicism is more clever. They say that one must keep
the commandments of God, but if you break them (they say)
you may confess that sin to the priest and you will not go to hell.

In each of the examples above, the doctrine is designed to remove the
fear of God from those who continue to disobey the commandments of
God. And those doctrines receive their power to deceive from the teaching of Eternal Torment.

It is easy to see that the desperate need for an easy way to be delivered from eternal hell-fire creates the desire for some scheme which allows the sinner to be saved even though he continues to sin.

The doctrine of Eternal Torment insults God and serves Satan's purpose to make men believe the same lie that seduced Eve - "If you disobey God YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE".

All who teach Eternal Torment for all men unwittingly serve Satan...

HK
And the fundamentalists, charismatics and evangelicals are in so much bondage to tradition it's an embarresment.
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Old 06-13-2009, 07:00 PM
 
6,197 posts, read 4,822,809 times
Reputation: 1672
Quote:
Thanks for the correction - should have read "...all unsaved men."
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Old 06-13-2009, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
4,271 posts, read 3,582,264 times
Reputation: 874
AGAIN!!..........Do you trust God to give to each and everyone their just due? If it is so, "Yes, I trust Him", what do you then have to fear?

For whether we want to believe or not, HIS WILL, WILL BE DONE!!..........................FINAL ANSWER!
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