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"and every eye shall see him" .. Did every eye see him or not? I didnt see him? Did you? Does this mean every eye in the time of christ? How come no one ever mentioned it until the preterist doctrine came about?'Or does it mean every eye of everyone who is alive at the time? And they who pierced him refers to the Jews not to the specific people who killed him in those days.
Though this answer is very fallacious in my opinion, it is an answer... Ill credit you that ...
Now, the other 9 problems with preterism? What do you have to say about them?
I do believe they are literal, but not do not refer to the disciples or to the generation of Christ. I already answered this above. Jesus did not know when the second coming would occur...
Matthew 24:36
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
Jesus said you in general, he himself not knowing if his disciples would see it come to pass or not.
They declared that it was being preached, that it had gone out to the whole world, not that it had already been finished as even at that time there where only seven churches in Asia.
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and WHICH WAS PREACHED(kēryssō) TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN; wherof I Paul am made a minister (Col.1:23)
WAS PREACHED is one word, kēryssō. "Was" is not a part of the original Greek text. This could and should be translated "which IS PREACHED."
But I say, have they not HEARD? YES VERILY, their sound wentinto(eis - into or TO) ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE END OF THE EARTH (Rom.10:18).
Again the word went is exerchomai, and it means "has gone out", not has already gotten there. Also, in the word into is eis, and can be translated as to. The Gospel was preached by christ and he told them to take it into the whole world. At the time of the writing of these verse Paul is telling us that the gospel was in the process of going out into the whole world.
"Has gone out to all the world" ...
"For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL; Which is come to you, AS IT IS IN ALL THE WORLD; and bringeth forth fruit"...(Col.1:5-6)
The words "it is" was added in by the translators of the kjv. It is not a part of the original text. This should be translated
"Which is come to you, as in all the world."
It is implies that it(gospel) has already gone into all the world, but that obviously was not the case. But it was going into all the world at the time. If it had already gotten there we would not be told to continue the spreading of the word as the spreading of the word would have already been accomplished in all the world at that time.
No, the holy spirit was not wrong, the translation is wrong to some extent and seems to imply what was not meant by the original text. And therefor the interpretation is wrong as well.
That is my answer, now your answers to my previous questions?
'
Ironmaw: I am trying my best to be calm as I write this, but it makes me more than upset when people attempt to use Greek when they themselves do not understand it. Have you studied Greek? Let me say this (and I rarely bring it up unless I feel forced to): I graduated Magna *** Laude from Grace Theological Seminary with a Master of Divinity degree. I studied Greek under the instruction of Daniel B. Wallace, author of the highly acclaimed advanced Greek Grammar, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. And even after all the instruction in seminary and the many years I have studied on my own since, I do not consider myself anywhere near being a Greek scholar!
Your misunderstanding of the Greek text in your post is beyond shameful. I will not deal with everything you said, but the most glaring example of your lack of learning in this area in your mishandling of Colossian 1:23! The Greek word there is keruchthentos. It is the genitive, singular, neuter, aorist, passive participle form of kerusso--"to proclaim, to announce openly and publicly." Ironmaw, you specifically claimed that there is no "was" here because it is one word, and then you proceed to use TWO words to translate it your way (i.e. IS preached).
Ironmaw, Greek is NOT English. It does not need helping or auxiliary verbs--the tense and the mood dictate how a Greek verb is to be translated. There are more tenses in English than there are in Greek. Again, in the Greek there are no auxiliary verbs to express things such as "was" or "should" or "has." Those aspects are included in the form of the Greek word! Therefore, the Greek word, lego, can be translated either "I say" or "I am saying"--one word in Greek translated with more than one word in the Greek!
The bottom line is this, Ironmaw, it is totally erroneous to claim that there is no "was" in kerusso because there is only one Greek word. I can't believe I am even explaining this! Because kerusso is found in Colossians 1:23 in the aorist passive it is correctly translated "was preached!"
"and every eye shall see him" .. Did every eye see him or not? I didnt see him? Did you? Does this mean every eye in the time of christ? How come no one ever mentioned it until the preterist doctrine came about?'Or does it mean every eye of everyone who is alive at the time? And they who pierced him refers to the Jews not to the specific people who killed him in those days.
Though this answer is very fallacious in my opinion, it is an answer... Ill credit you that ...
Now, the other 9 problems with preterism? What do you have to say about them?
Ironmaw,
You completely missed the point, and didn't answer the question. THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM would see him (Rev.1:7). How can those who pierced him see him if the coming is future. The ALL in Revelation 1:7 must be qualified with the phrase "THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM."
Last edited by jeapostle; 06-17-2009 at 04:43 PM..
Reason: Misspelled
"and every eye shall see him" .. Did every eye see him or not? I didnt see him? Did you? Does this mean every eye in the time of christ? How come no one ever mentioned it until the preterist doctrine came about?'Or does it mean every eye of everyone who is alive at the time? And they who pierced him refers to the Jews not to the specific people who killed him in those days.
Though this answer is very fallacious in my opinion, it is an answer... Ill credit you that ...
Now, the other 9 problems with preterism? What do you have to say about them?
What other 9 "problems," Ironmaw? The ones you copied and pasted from Middletown Bible Church's website? Ironmaw, have you looked up EVERY (you claim to understand what that word means) verse that the compilers of this list used to come up with those "problems" with peterisim? Have you? If not, I will not deal with them either.
Make them your own, Ironmaw, and then I will address them. Study the context of EVERY verse that was used to support those so-called problems, Ironmaw. I am beyond sick and tired of the copying and pasting done here.
Here is my notice--I will NOT respond to those who copy and paste someone else's work which is "supported" by verses the copier and paster did not bother to look up and study in their contexts!
You have no right, Ironmaw, to expect us to refute these "problems" with preterism for you when you yourself have not taken the necessary time to ascertain whether the claims are indeed justified!
Ironmaw: I am trying my best to be calm as I write this, but it makes me more than upset when people attempt to use Greek when they themselves do not understand it. Have you studied Greek? Let me say this (and I rarely bring it up unless I feel forced to): I graduated Magna *** Laude from Grace Theological Seminary with a Master of Divinity degree. I studied Greek under the instruction of Daniel B. Wallace, author of the highly acclaimed advanced Greek Grammar, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. And even after all the instruction in seminary and the many years I have studied on my own since, I do not consider myself anywhere near being a Greek scholar!
Your misunderstanding of the Greek text in your post is beyond shameful. I will not deal with everything you said, but the most glaring example of your lack of learning in this area in your mishandling of Colossian 1:23! The Greek word there is keruchthentos. It is the genitive, singular, neuter, aorist, passive participle form of kerusso--"to proclaim, to announce openly and publicly." Ironmaw, you specifically claimed that there is no "was" here because it is one word, and then you proceed to use TWO words to translate it your way (i.e. IS preached).
Ironmaw, Greek is NOT English. It does not need helping or auxiliary verbs--the tense and the mood dictate how a Greek verb is to be translated. There are more tenses in English than there are in Greek. Again, in the Greek there are no auxiliary verbs to express things such as "was" or "should" or "has." Those aspects are included in the form of the Greek word! Therefore, the Greek word, lego, can be translated either "I say" or "I am saying"--one word in Greek translated with more than one word in the Greek!
The bottom line is this, Ironmaw, it is totally erroneous to claim that there is no "was" in kerusso because there is only one Greek word. I can't believe I am even explaining this! Because kerusso is found in Colossians 1:23 in the aorist passive it is correctly translated "was preached!"
Preterist
Thanks for the response Preterist. Many would rather change the meaning of words than believe the text. Some will do anything to wiggle out when confronted with truth, instead of humbly changing their position. I have had to change my position in this area, and it was a very humbling experience, and I am still open to change if confronted with the truth.
Last edited by jeapostle; 06-17-2009 at 04:49 PM..
Reason: change word
I do believe they are literal, but not do not refer to the disciples or to the generation of Christ. I already answered this above. Jesus did not know when the second coming would occur...
Matthew 24:36
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
Jesus said you in general, he himself not knowing if his disciples would see it come to pass or not.
They declared that it was being preached, that it had gone out to the whole world, not that it had already been finished as even at that time there where only seven churches in Asia.
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and WHICH WAS PREACHED(kēryssō) TO EVERY CREATURE WHICH IS UNDER HEAVEN; wherof I Paul am made a minister (Col.1:23)
WAS PREACHED is one word, kēryssō. "Was" is not a part of the original Greek text. This could and should be translated "which IS PREACHED."
But I say, have they not HEARD? YES VERILY, their sound wentinto(eis - into or TO) ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE END OF THE EARTH (Rom.10:18).
Again the word went is exerchomai, and it means "has gone out", not has already gotten there. Also, in the word into is eis, and can be translated as to. The Gospel was preached by christ and he told them to take it into the whole world. At the time of the writing of these verse Paul is telling us that the gospel was in the process of going out into the whole world.
"Has gone out to all the world" ...
"For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL; Which is come to you, AS IT IS IN ALL THE WORLD; and bringeth forth fruit"...(Col.1:5-6)
The words "it is" was added in by the translators of the kjv. It is not a part of the original text. This should be translated
"Which is come to you, as in all the world."
It is implies that it(gospel) has already gone into all the world, but that obviously was not the case. But it was going into all the world at the time. If it had already gotten there we would not be told to continue the spreading of the word as the spreading of the word would have already been accomplished in all the world at that time.
No, the holy spirit was not wrong, the translation is wrong to some extent and seems to imply what was not meant by the original text. And therefor the interpretation is wrong as well.
That is my answer, now your answers to my previous questions?
The translation is wrong, Ironmaw? Really? Where did you study Greek?
Ironmaw: I am trying my best to be calm as I write this, but it makes me more than upset when people attempt to use Greek when they themselves do not understand it. Have you studied Greek? Let me say this (and I rarely bring it up unless I feel forced to): I graduated Magna *** Laude from Grace Theological Seminary with a Master of Divinity degree. I studied Greek under the instruction of Daniel B. Wallace, author of the highly acclaimed advanced Greek Grammar, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. And even after all the instruction in seminary and the many years I have studied on my own since, I do not consider myself anywhere near being a Greek scholar!
Your misunderstanding of the Greek text in your post is beyond shameful. I will not deal with everything you said, but the most glaring example of your lack of learning in this area in your mishandling of Colossian 1:23! The Greek word there is keruchthentos. It is the genitive, singular, neuter, aorist, passive participle form of kerusso--"to proclaim, to announce openly and publicly." Ironmaw, you specifically claimed that there is no "was" here because it is one word, and then you proceed to use TWO words to translate it your way (i.e. IS preached).
Ironmaw, Greek is NOT English. It does not need helping or auxiliary verbs--the tense and the mood dictate how a Greek verb is to be translated. There are more tenses in English than there are in Greek. Again, in the Greek there are no auxiliary verbs to express things such as "was" or "should" or "has." Those aspects are included in the form of the Greek word! Therefore, the Greek word, lego, can be translated either "I say" or "I am saying"--one word in Greek translated with more than one word in the Greek!
The bottom line is this, Ironmaw, it is totally erroneous to claim that there is no "was" in kerusso because there is only one Greek word. I can't believe I am even explaining this! Because kerusso is found in Colossians 1:23 in the aorist passive it is correctly translated "was preached!"
Preterist
I Said it could be translated is preached. As you said the context dictates the tense, and we know the Gospel had not even gone as far as Japan or the Americas by the time of the writing of that verse.
Quote:
In Col. 1:23 Paul uses the Aorist Passive Participle, 'keruchthentos'
("proclaim"). The Aorist tense says nothing about the state of
the action whether complete or in process. The Aorist only
sees the action as a whole but without reference to the state of
the action and is thus defined by some grammarians as an
'indefinite' tense. An Aorist Participle says nothing about the time of action. It could be in the past or simultaneous with
the speaker. The Aorist Participle is notoriously difficult to
render accurately in English. It could be rendered, "having
been preached," but that English rendering implies a state of
completion that the Aorist Participle does not. Or it could be,
"being preached" but that implies action in progress which the
Aorist also does not but probably comes closest to Paul's
point. As in the previous point this could only be taken to
indicate the process was complete if Paul had used a Perfect
or Pluperfect tense.
Your right, my lexicon does not show the correct word, only the word from which it derives. But that doesn't change the point.
Thanks for the response Preterist. Many would rather change the meaning of words than believe the text. Some will do anything to wiggle out when confronted with truth, instead of humbly changing their position. I have had to change my position in this area, and it was a very humbling experience, and I am still open to change if confronted with the truth.
Greetings, jeapostle: I have been to the humility post a few times myself. And I, too, am open to change when confronted with TRUTH!
I Said it could be translated is preached. As you said the context dictates the tense, and we know the Gospel had not even gone as far as Japan or the Americas by the time of the writing of that verse.
Your right, my lexicon does not show the correct word, only the word from which it derives. But that doesn't change the point.
Whatever, Ironmaw. Nothing anyone ever says will persuade you of your errors. It DOES change the point. The verse clearly states that the Gospel "WAS preached." And, no, it COULD NOT BE translated "is preached." Again, you continue to behave as though you understand Greek. Where did you study? Ironmaw, you cannot learn Greek from a lexicon!
Whatever, Ironmaw. Nothing anyone ever says will persuade you of your errors. It DOES change the point. The verse clearly states that the Gospel "WAS preached." And, no, it COULD NOT BE translated "is preached." Again, you continue to behave as though you understand Greek. Where did you study? Ironmaw, you cannot learn Greek from a lexicon!
Preterist
No i didn't go to college to study Greek, However, i know a few people who have ... That is neither here nor there. The above quote is from a professor of Greek though.
Don't get your feathers ruffled man.
Alright lets take a look at some more scripture to see what the word of God says about the kingdom to come.
Quote:
"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Quote:
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
Well, lets see, was the fall of the temple in ad 70 the worst time that ever was or ever will be? I think the last 2 world wars dwarfed the fall of the temple in ad 70, not to mention the dark ages and the inquisition.
Quote:
"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
Did the fall of the temple in ad 70 nearly wipe out all flesh from the earth? No it didn't.
Quote:
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
So if christ death on the cross and resurrection where the coming of the kingdom, or if it came after the fall of the temple in ad 70, then who are the false christs that are said to arise before the kingdom comes? What great signs and wonders did they preform that would convince people they were prophets or even messiah?
If the fall of the temple in ad 70 was the great tribulation and Christ kingdom came at that time, why does he warn us some should say that he has come when he has not? He then tells us that when he comes it will be known by all, as the lightning flashes in the east and is seen in the west. In other words, he warns us not to be deceived about his coming, for when he comes everyone will know and see him coming. This has not yet occurred, or we would not be having this debate ...
Quote:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Any historical evidence of these things having occurred yet, or immediately after ad 70? Nope... There isn't. Something like this would certainly have been recorded for posterity sake don't you think? Israel mourned for certain at the fall of the temple in ad 70 and during the diaspora, but the tribes of the earth didn't mourn because of the fall of the temple. The sun was not darkned and the moon never ceased giving her light, andth e stars haven't fallen from the sky and the powers of the heavens have not been shaken.
You believe Christ really lived and really died and really resurrected and went into heaven but you don't believe he will really return and establish his kingdom on earth.
Quote:
2 tim 4:1
"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom"
At the fall of the temple in ad 70 did the resurrection happen and did christ judge the quick and the dead? Nope he didnt, because people are still living day by day in sin, dying day by day in sin, and all are still waiting for judgment.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 06-17-2009 at 05:48 PM..
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Nothing anyone ever says will persuade you of your errors. It DOES change the point. The verse clearly states that the Gospel "WAS preached." And, no, it COULD NOT BE translated "is preached." Again, you continue to behave as though you understand Greek. Where did you study? Ironmaw, you cannot learn Greek from a lexicon!
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
